Ego, what is it from a Daoist View

Hi Fajin:

Thanks for your response, I would like to slow down and isolate some of your comments.

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. The ego is self-concsiousness. It is the xin (heart mind) that needs yi (wisdom mind. Usually it’s yin and yang with people who are egotistical and not yin-yang. The yuan shen and yuan jing or heart fire and kidney water that make up the concsious self. The parasympathetic and sympathetic, etc.
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Some wight say the Ego is not self-consciousness, it is a set of beliefs, conditioning, emotions, self-servival mechanisisms that comprise the most individualized and isolated aspect one’s life. If it were “self consisciousness”, it would be a tool to see our true nature, but most spiritual realized people say the ego is incapable of perceiving one’s true nature.

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2. The point of ego is that man should use his ego and not try to dominate it or destroy it. Also, not be dominated or blinded by it. The interaction and integration of kan and li. Using water to nourish fire.
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are you saying the ego is a tool, that another aspect of ourself needs to understand the nature of ego and use it to assist it in living life?

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3. It would be balance, but with an imbalance of kan and li, it indicates and possessive and clinging behaviour. Why is it imbalanced, go to the root of it all. Expansion, heart fire, rising, do you see a link? Rather, transform the ego (like Michael and I said).
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This is not clear to me, can you explain this more?

4. Behind the ego? You mean what it’s all about? Check answer #2.
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you imply there is something in a person besides ego, what is this and how is it possible it could allow the ego to be the dominant aspect of living and perceiving our life?

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5. Seeing beyond subject and object is “no-seeing.” It requires self-awareness and inner realization to grasp the ego and bring it down to the root or essence. The ego is the greatest hindrance in man, if he cannot transform it that is.
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can you tell me what it is that transforms it, how is it that it has become “the greatest hindrance in man”, what is it about humans that allows this to happen?

thanks you very much,
bagua

Hi fajin:

I think some of our interaction is not clear, maybe we can expand on it.

You:
*Most spiritual realized people don’t do anything about tranforming the ego (unique about the daoists) which can then be a tool to see our true nature. From prenatal came postnatal concsiousness and so we must go back to prenatal. Going back to the root. This is my personal Daoist view.
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Me:
It depends what you mean by transforming the ego. If one harmonizes the five shen and they are integrated, the ego is not activated, when the five shen are fragmented or one is out of balance the ego is activated and it isolates or separates the unity of ourselves. Im not sure I would call this transorming the ego. The integration or unity causes clear insight and understanding of the thinking/intellect/ego mind and its role. Its more about cultivating unity and this space/vision/understanding of unity allows one to see ego/intellect in its proper place and role, than transforming ego.

This is stillness in movement, we are stillness/yuan shen living in movement/post natal world, dont associate your true nature with the movemenet, but with the stillness. In this example, stillnees is yuan shen, movement is ego.

You
*Those who are materialistic still hold onto the ego as though it were a possession, rather than using it as a tool. We need to be one with the ego and yes, it can assist us in living life if we transform it to do that, what Daoists try to do.
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I would say we need to see the ego for what it is, which implies our true nature does not attach its identity to the ego, in the same we we are not entirely our body, it has its function, but it does not define us, its not our yuan shen.

You:
*It is about transforming the ego structure. The expanded ego is fire that needs cooling. Buddhist/Hinduists/Tibetans try to tame this monkey/fire/sympathetic through their methods like counting, breathing, etc. Daoists use fusion, and then kan and li which re-structures it. Though, I don’t know too much about these formulas, just read about them on this site.
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I dont think these practices restructure the ego. Unify one’s self, the ego then falls into place, we see the ego for what it is, a collection of experiences, fellings, patterns, thinking processes, no more, no less, we/yuan self detaches from it as our identy, more precisely, we will naturally see it for what it is.

Me:
Again, by making the parasympathetic nervous system dominant and the sympathetic nervous system passive through the transformation process. The ego is the heart kidney connection (which controls the nervous systems), the jing shen (to be more specific), and the emotional body more or less that makes up conciousness. This team of 5 organ shen. Transform the emotional body through fusion or other means.
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Ego is thinking mind, the intellect, it may have been influenced and been traumatized by the intensity of emotions, experience/etc., especially when young as we are not developed enough to handle the intensity safely and easily, so the ego and its response mechanism/self-survival processes kick in, creating patterns of reaction and behavior, not allowing us to live in the moment, but living in our past experience and responding to each moment based on those patterns.

Politicians, leaders, marketers use this attachment to ego, of which they have contributed to creating, for their benefit, they play with the polarity of this attachement to stimulate people to acheive their goal. they need this extreme polarity to get one to act for them.

You
*The greatest hindrance in man is the ego because he cannot transform it. Other paths tame it (nothing bad about it, just different approach). Daoists transform. If from what I have just told you, you still don’t know how to transform it, ask Michael, I haven’t tried his alchemical formulas yet.
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Me
I think the condition is most humans cannot seperate from ego, they identify with it as their self.

Alchemy is about separating emotions, isolating unfav and cultivating natural virtues. Connecting to the energy body, this now makes a clear distinction from the physical and emotional body as true self, and connect and cultivate the integration of our spiritual body. This process allows one to directly experience their yuan self as the eternal nature.

The ego, emotions, patterns, fantasy thinking about who one is and what they need and desire, the changing, impermanent aspects of life, all come and go, but our yuan self is always here, realizing this is the goal of tao practice, IMHO. This is realing one’s immortal nature.

No mind is empty mind and is to be enligthened by all things.

Later Heaven and Early Heaven exist simultaneously, EH is Yuan Shen, LH is changing nature of life, this means to know you are eternal but live in a changing world, sitllness in movement.

Know the offspring but stay with the mother, is another way of saying it.

Thanks my tao friend,

bagua

hi sponge:

I like your view and the direct simplicity of your statement.

A few things.

Not sure what you mean “we integrate it”, what integrates it? If you mean the five shen or the unity of the five shen, I disagree, the Five Shen does not integrate the Ego, Unity itself or being in the present moment dissapates it naturally and allows one see Ego for what it is. The ego always exists, but one’s understanding of it changes or one’s relationship to its function changes.

Smiling in the Tao,

bagua

Hello Fajin:

Thanks for your feedback. Where in wudang do you study, as I know of some training places there.

My view is not based soley on HT, I have studied from a variety of sources and people, but becuase this is Michael’s site, I am trying to use the terminoloy he presents.

I will now try a different approach to explain. Daoism believes the human spirit consists of two componenets, the Original Spirit and the Personality.
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Can you tell me a taoist text that states that?
By pesonality do you mean EGO, Intellectual thinking, attachment to personality, can you explain this more?

The Personality (post-birth spirit) has a surpessing and overshadowing effect on the yuan shen (Original Spirit). The stillness you refer to is original spirit and the movement is the personality. Therefore, original spirit is not ego, and postnatal spirit is ego.
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I just dont agree the Ego is Spirit

This also means that your ego (personality) can overshadow and surpress the yuan shen (original spirit). So, ego is emotional body. You just look at it as negative emotional body.
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How can Ego be Spirit and the emotional body?

You transform these emotions to positive and then it won’t surpess the yuan shen (our true nature).
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I think this word transform is deceiving. Being calm, relaxed and centered and the negative emotions dissolve.

This way we can see our true nature by using movement to reach stillness once again. Going back to the root.
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Movement is one method to attain calm and balance

Therefore, we must transform the personality. Then, we integrate this ego with original spirit, do we not? Maybe now we understand each other better.
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When we attune to our center, personality follows, the five shen follow, all aspects follow, cultivating this center is the transformation process, if you chase each emotion, it will never end.

We need to use the ego (personality) as a tool to go back to our true nature.
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Well this is where we part, which is the fucntion of ego.
It is my experience that attuning to the center/yuan is our true nature, and this consciosness sees the Ego for what it is, I dont beleive we use the Ego to find our true nature, by definition Ego fragments.

We need to transform our ego (personality) in order to use it. Otherwise, it will remain scattered (monnkey mind, xin, rising fire, sympathetic, etc.)
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It will alwasy exists, but through cultivation its nature is revealed, freedom manifests from this understanding.

To see the ego is not enough. Observation only gets you so far, we need to shape it to what we really want.
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it is not just observation, it is inner-realization of the limited nature of Ego and the unlimited nature of our Yuan Shen.

Daoist inner alchemy is about transforming the negative emotions into positive ones, is that what fusion is not about?
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Those are the words some use to desribe it. My experience is the following: Fusion and Kan And Li, as well as the basics is really about focusing one’s attention/consciousness on a single thing, unifyng their awarenss, it is this awareness that is the “Center/middle Path/Yuan”, the benefits include peace, calm, balance, harmony and Unity.

The distinction is already clear when the ego does not overshadow the true self (yuan shen). Transforming the ego (personality) is the process that allows one to directly experience their yuan self as the eternal nature.
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I basically agree with this, its the how we may disagree.

bagua

hi fajin:

I know your master at wudang and know your damo qigong.

I think it is tricky to just quote other people.

I never met White Cloud, so i do not know if he existed.

There are a few more things I will comment on, but need to go work.

later,

bagua