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There is no way to know how far you are on this path. It’s a constant process without steps, levels, etc. You do it, you observe, you are a part of it, but you don’t cling to experiences.
It is a good method, but there are many methods that get to the same goal. You set your mind on Michael’s and with your effort and determination you will go far. It’s my view Michael’s alchemy doesn’t emphasize enough how emptiness is important right from the beginning of your cultivation path. The Taoist immortal teachers Chung-li Ch’uan, Lu Tung-pin, Wang Ch’ung-yang, Sun Pu-erh all instructed their students to practice Emptiness meditation to clear their minds and hearts from desire, clinging, lust- before they taught them any specific formulas. Clear untainted mind and heart were the prerequisite and the foundation. Then, as Bagua said, you consciously realize the internal processes within your body are all happening by themselves. Stillness is the jump-start.
Hello Max,
Thanks for answering. I know that Bagua said that we become aware of the processes that are happening inside our bodies, but it is not just intensifying a certain natural process. As he answered me that the pearl/immortal child is created through your intent because this does not happen naturally. Bagua was referring to alignment of the self with the whole which is Te.
All paths aim at unity with the greater self and actualizing one’s true nature, but I think that the Daoist path is more direct in this. For example, in the case with emptiness I completely agree with you that we should first attain a heart free of desires, so that’s what the inner smile does, the most basic tool of Daoist inner alchemy. It cleans your heart of this, and I know, I have been doing the inner smile for a while now. Find yin within yang or stillness within movement, where does the movement begin, your organs, so go directly to them.
Of course, you can turn your senses inward and observe but I think that going directly to the root source is predominantly more effective. So, to my knowledge, the most basic tool of inner alchemy, the inner smile, is the best way to clean the mind of passions and desires before beginning One Cloud’s formulation.
So, in my view, Michael DOES emphasize cleaning the heart of desires and passions before beginning the more advanced formulations. I also see that these formulas are not JUST about natural processes.
Fajin
Hi fajin:
I would only like to express that Taoist Alchemical formulas can only mimick and mirror process that exist in our bodies and our bigger body, the universe; creation of a pearl or not is just a method, we already have a pearl. As M. Chia use to say, we have the most powerful cyrstal inside us.
I think in a way we are like a diamond in the rough, the diamond always is there, its about revealing it. You think Taoist alchemy is the greatest way to clear the rough, I think it is very good, but one can spend a lifetime or many years playing with all the ways to clear it away and not get to the diamond. Chan is solely about the diamond, its methods focus on that. Taoist practice works on many other aspects of a human, of course I think they are critical to health and vitality, this is why they are inseparable. Both should be done simultaneously. In my experience if M. Chia’s inner smile is done with all one’s attention, this is chan or wu wei.
bagua
b> creation of a pearl or not is just a method, we already have a pearl. >
b> I think in a way we are like a diamond in the rough, the diamond always is there, its about revealing it. Chan is solely about the diamond, its methods focus on that. >
Those two statements reveal that you are perhaps missing an important piece, imho. Or my lack of understanding what you are saying.
My view of the terms “diamond” and “pearl”, is that they are related to concentration of essence in a way that – eventually, maybe, if conditions are right – ignites the subtle item commonly called “bindu” or “drop”, which has a special connection with Ground Light.
In my limited experience of Zen, its methods concentrate on stabalizing unruffled presence of awareness, yet does not directly address subtle body machinery.
Clearly we are not tracking in something or other,
curious to hear you clarify your view.Hi Trunk:
I tried to use an example to express something, maybe it was not a good one, but it needs to be kept in context with the entire post.
The pearl will eventually become an exact replicare of ones body, in the form of an energy body, one can condense or expand it, one goal is that this pearl/energy takes the form of an energy body, and if one prefers to say sometime the Shen body, this is the taoist language. My view these already exist,taoist alchemy seeks to touch or become them consciously.
One more story.
I was driving and listening to the radio and looking ahead at traffic, after about ten minutes I happened to look up and saw the sky, it was beautiful and the clouds were magnificent, they were always there, i just was not looking at it. I think Chan is like this, our true nature is always here, we just need to attune to it. Why did I not see the beautiful and magnificent sky and clouds, I was busy thinking about the day, listening to music; for me this was my blockage, my distraction for experiencing that beauty. In my view, Chan expresses it is all here now, as one Zen Master told me, just change your angle. Just like looking up to see the sky.
I dont think Chan denies the possibilty of immortals, or hundreds or thousands of spiritual realms, or special pyschic powers, that is not what their goal is, one can spend a life time persuing those areas and miss self-realization.
It seems to me Chan can embrance the goal of Tao Alchemy, but some Tao alchemists dont seem to be able to embrace the Chan experience within their process or dismiss it as inferior, but I have not heard a Tao Master say this. Quite the contrary, masters of both traditions I have met over my lifetime see how both realizations are the same.
Trunk
In my limited experience of Zen, its methods concentrate on stabalizing unruffled presence of awareness, yet does not directly address subtle body machinery.
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In my view, the cultivation that could cause the “stablizing of unfuffled presence of awareness” is alchemy, Chan alchemy, but they do not call it that, just not the method M. Chia’s/ M. Winn’s alchemical formulas present. Different ways to skin the cat.If one experiences they are both separate and part of the whole simultaneously, they experience their energy and spiritual bodies. One experiences they are part of and inseparable from the the universe, how much bigger can one get?
Why does one go to or connect to the Earth, the Sun, Moon and stars in this alchemy, they connect their awareness to these living entities, to benefit from their Qi, to realize their connection to them, that they are one. We are realizing the inseparable relationships of life, this is the direct realization the individual and collective are one.
Im not a Chan master or a Tao master, i speak from my personal experience and research, and observing others in these paths.
Fajin, Yes I have learned from our dialogues.
Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
Bagua,
Like you said, Chan goes directly to the diamond or reunion with Dao. Whe you attempt to do this and skip all the phases that you have been stepped down into (wu-shen-qi-jing) you don’t need a pearl concentrated of your essence, you are simply trying to experience wu-wei until you actually get there, there is “no” strategy. In Chan, no room for effort in trying to get there, because you see that we are already there, just blinded by our ego and we just have to be natural and let everything simply align naturally and behold, “THE TRUTH.”
In Daoist inner alchemy, and in other yogas there is some kind of strategy. Eg. in kundalini yoga you go up the spine passing each chakra until crown chakra with this concentrated essence of yourself, ie. kundalini.
In Daoist alchemy, this same concentrated essence is used but as a pearl with different methods. Chan has no strategy and through this “no” strategy, you will eventually reunite with Dao, but much longer because it doesn’t intensify the part that you want to work on.
Eg. you can practice lots of taiji and you can build strong rooting power, or you can isolate one aspect of taiji at a time. You can stay in Ma Bu (horse stance) on stakes and put weights on your knees to intensify rooting power, which is much quicker than practicing many more hours of taiji to get that same result in rooting power. Or just practice fajin strikes separately rather than in a taiji form and results will be much better fajin wise.
So too, Chan does nothing, yet everything is accomplished but it will take much, much longer to get there rather than going through the jing qi shen wu model. But you view that Chan is about the experience and so you are not interested in how we got here, just about being in a Chan state because you think that it is the answer to all our problems.
Although, going “there” is not what you are interested in because you say we are here NOW, and we are complete NOW, and only being in a Chan state is all that we need. It’s dificult talking with you about this Bagua, because you don’t care about cosmology or formulas, paths, models, just the experience. If we were free, we could experience wu-wei, but we have stepped down into a physical plane with limitations and we have to use a path to free ourselves, then the experience comes. Jumping straight into wu-wei is not the most direct path.
So how do we free ourselves, I think by following the laws of nature, the Dao. So we will need some kind of strategy for the time being before we can have “no strategy.”
P.S. I hope that might have activated a few brain cells!
Fajin
Hello fajin:
Practicing Chan takes work, to meditate, to read, for some chant, and apply it in daily life, this is work my friend.
Fajin
Chan has no strategy and through this “no” strategy, you will eventually reunite with Dao, but much longer because it doesn’t intensify the part that you want to work on.
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Go study with a Chan master and then let me know if there is no strategy and method in their practice, their meditation and their interaction with student/teacher.Now here is the big distortion. You think its quicker to accomplish your alchemical goal, show me. Tell me the immortals now, where are they. I asked your teacher if he knew one person that acheived this state, based on his meetings, he could not name one person from our community, our lineages. So tell me where are all of them, since it takes the short-cut and is much quicker?
Fajin
So how do we free ourselves, I think by following the laws of nature, the Dao. So we will need some kind of strategy for the time being before we can have “no strategy.”
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Follow your strategy, may it take you where you want, I just hope it brings you back to the here and now. These are the training wheels you need, use them and some day you well be free, i hope it wont be too long.Do you believe the Yoga traditons have the same goal as your tao alchemy or is the tao method the superior one?
thanks,
bagua
b> The pearl will eventually become an exact replicare of ones body, in the form of an energy body, one can condense or expand it, one goal is that this pearl/energy takes the form of an energy body, and if one prefers to say sometime the Shen body, this is the taoist language. My view these already exist,taoist alchemy seeks to touch or become them consciously. >
I’m not in alignment with Chia’s presentation of the created energy body. At best I think it is a very advanced auxilliary practice. And it mis-directs from what I view as a much more immediate, uncontrived, and foundational task: the knowledge and practice of how the energy body that is already integral to your physical body integrates with the Big Nameless. It is very specific knowledge, and is at the crux of the union of energy-refinement-work with No-Map. The deep-center, the mysterious pass, the bindu teachings, the neutral space – all terms that relate to the intersection of an energetic center and the central channel, and how that gets done. Without that, qi gong just goes in circles forever, gradually tangling upon itself.
>>Go study with a Chan master and then let me know if there is no strategy and method in their practice, their meditation and their interaction with student/teacher.<< *There is a strategy in Chan and it is called "no strategy." It does not mean that there the strategy is absent, you'll now what I mean one day. >>Now here is the big distortion. You think its quicker to accomplish your alchemical goal, show me. Tell me the immortals now, where are they. I asked your teacher if he knew one person that acheived this state, based on his meetings, he could not name one person from our community, our lineages. So tell me where are all of them, since it takes the short-cut and is much quicker?<< *Is there one Chan practitioner who can abide in a wu-wei state 24/7? Can you name one? Why can't you? There are stories of people meeting immortals like the railroad worker and Babaji, but you probably don't believe it, anyway. >>Do you believe the Yoga traditons have the same goal as your tao alchemy or is the tao method the superior one?<< *In a fight, two opponents have different styles, one wins, why? If you can abide to the laws of nature in training for martial arts better than your opponent, you will be better than him. If you can abide to laws of nature in living life, you will have a happy life. All paths do take you to the same goal, Bagua, but one is more effective in reaching the destination. You have to choose one and continually refine it. Fajin
Hi Fajin:
You obviously do not know much about martial arts, its not the art and not the training, its the individual that determines who wins in a contest. You can work the hardest, you can have great teachers, it all comes down to the individual skill.
You are a sharp person, too bad you take an extremist approach in dialogue, you goal is to win, and its clear in your writing. I seek to see the similiar in the practices, not the differences.
Good luck,
bagua
Bagua,
>>You obviously do not know much about martial arts, its not the art and not the training, its the individual that determines who wins in a contest. You can work the hardest, you can have great teachers, it all comes down to the individual skill.<< *Let's say you have attained attained golden bell cover at a very high level and your opponent has no jin that is strong enough to penetrate your body. The winner is already decided by the training one undergoes. Individual skill is refined through training. You cannot be a good fighter if you don't train, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's not just about the path, but how much training one undergoes in his path. There are other factors involved as well. Read Sun Tzu's work please (if you haven't already), then we can have a somewhat reasonable discussion on this subject. I have more experience with martial arts then you think. >>You are a sharp person, too bad you take an extremist approach in dialogue, you goal is to win, and its clear in your writing. I seek to see the similiar in the practices, not the differences. << *I like to take a scientific approach in my journey based on efficiency. I don't like to win over my opponents, I only battle with myself, that's the real fight. With preparation comes oppurtunity. I like to be the very best I can be at what I do, to explore my body, mind, and spirit potential. Through this self-discovery and self-exploration, one can become a realized person. It is only my guess that these formulas help to do so. We have a physiological make-up, a subtle body anatomy, and lesser and greater spirits. This is who we are. I am only interested in training all of these aspects of ourself in the most efficient way. There is no winner or loser. It an art to me. I'm not extremist, I just take whatever techniques, meditations, qigong, etc. will help me in my journey and futher refine them based on wisdom and good judgement. Life is a constant process of relating within oneself. Bagua, when science gets there, you will see who is right. The birthing of a spiritual science for the world is approaching us. You will see that I am not selfish, nor extremist, I just want to fulfill my potential. You think that this is about winning, I see it as using our free will to our utmost. I personally don't like the Chan methods of koans, emptiness meditations, or whatever they use, because I don't think that they are very useful. If you like Chan experience, then go experience it, I'm not stopping you, the CHOICE is yours. I just share my knowledge and wisdom with you, and maybe you will learn something from me and you will change. The same goes for me. I have learned alot from you, and I am grateful for discussing with you. Bye-bye for now, Fajin
Max> The Taoist immortal teachers .. all instructed their students to practice Emptiness meditation to clear their minds and hearts from desire, clinging, lust- before they taught them any specific formulas. Clear untainted mind and heart were the prerequisite and the foundation. >
btw, the Tibetans sequence is similar, in that it (traditionally) doesn’t give energy-manipulation practices until extensive philosophical and practical training in Original Nature is accomplished.
The essential point of all the modes of Dharma taught by the Buddha
can be epitomized as a method to subdue one’s mind.
The entryway into the initial mind practice
is surely renunciation, without which there is no way.
If authentic renunciation arises, compulsive activities will be few;
if activites are few, the significance of non-action will be near.
When non-action is realized, it is the true nature.
There is no other buddha outside of that.There are many categories of view, meditation, and action,
but when applied to one’s own mind,
the view is absolute conviction in the true nature;
mediation is assimilating that meaning in one’s being;
and action is recognizing anything that happens as that view and meditation.
It follows that the fruition will be the actualization of things as they are.from Creation and Completion: Essential Points of Tantric Meditation, pg. 33
HI fajin:
Fajin
I personally don’t like the Chan methods of koans, emptiness meditations, or whatever they use, because I don’t think that they are very useful. If you like Chan experience, then go experience it, I’m not stopping you, the CHOICE is yours. I just share my knowledge and wisdom with you, and maybe you will learn something from me and you will change. The same goes for me. I have learned alot from you, and I am grateful for discussing with you.
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I am glad you shared your opinion, this is important and I appreciate it.I do Chan and tao alchemy, for my they go together like the Sun and Moon.
Its been a pleasure chatting.
ba Gua
>>I do Chan and tao alchemy, for my they go together like the Sun and Moon.<< *Is Chan moon (yin) and Dao (yang) to you or vice-versa? *Yes, it has certainly been a pleasure.
Hi Fajin:
The Sun and Moon, in constant movement, can’t have one with out the other. Chan is within Tao Alchemy, like the seeds of Yang are within Yin and seeds of Yin are within Yang. For me the two are one.
For me, Wu Wei is like a portal, it opens one to many possibilites and its a way to experience them. I have faith in this portal and how it connects me to the Tao or creation. Its my experience that spiritual enlightenment shows itself in daily life, how we live our life and how we interact with others, how we let the universe express itself thru us, this is what I cultivate, my main guide is the Tao Te Ching.
Its been a pleasure chatting with you, you have a deep understanding of Tao Alchemy, a real dragon my friend.
Tonight, blissful in the Tao,
bagua
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