Taoist Immortals & their health???

These are all reasonable questions, and all reasonable answers posted.

The assumption underlying the question is that immortality – or chi kung methods to cultivate it – removes you from the world. This is an error; it deepens your relationship with the world.

Nature is immortal in the sense it is enduring as Earth, and a human immortal is surrendering to that larger collective experience of Nature, including its ongoing cycles. You are expanding your chi field to identify with the larger chi field. But the ability to internalize that suficiently to live hundreds of years is rare indeed.

So more accurate to say its about accelerating the completion of one’s human destiny with the world. So you could complete that at an early age or at an old age. And then its choice as to whether there is enough soul challenge – and the paricular cultivation skills – to keep you motivated to stay in the physical plane, or to continue your journey in other aspects of nature, which includes the formless heavens.

Human, Earth, and heaven destiny are all aspects of Nature,all subsets of Tao. Immortality is the concept that the exploration of all these is possible with a continuous thread of individual consciousness. Its not about surviving physically forever.

michael

Your point on what it means to be “immortal” by taoist standards is well taken, but I don’t think it addresses the question.

I don’t think his assumption was that chi kung removes you from the world at all. I think his assumption – and yours – is that taoist practices put one in tune with the forces of nature both within and outside our bodies, and give the practitioner a certain ability to manipulate those forces.

More to the point is when you say that, once an adept has reached a certain level of attainment, “the CHOICE is whether or not . . . to stay on the physical plane” (my emphasis added). This implies that the adept can in fact manipulate his physical health to such a degree as to, say, survive liver poisoning or fix a broken hip. But that implication leads to increasingly silly positions, like White Cloud CHOSE to die of liver poisoning or, alternatively, that he wasn’t really very good at this taoism stuff.

The more interesting question to me is whether one can reach the level of immortality you imagine (i.e. leaving the world at will) and still have trouble with arthritis. I suspect the answer is yes but I recognize it muddles the whole rubric on which the theory of taoist immortality is based.

Oh, I meant it by the way, it’s nice to have you dipping into the forum.

Hey Harry,

I just reread all of these posts and realized no one was all that positive about taoism and health. Here’s my view.

Taoist systems of diet, exercise, and meditative practices and general “right living” are all designed to keep you physically healthy to a ripe old age. And I think, within reason, they do. But of course they can’t stop a truck. And if you get hit by a truck you’re best bet is to find a western hospital.

More to your question, I also don’t think these practices can stop poison or miraculously re-set bones like some Hollywood special effect. What they do is basically make the organism stronger, healthier and more able to withstand things (e.g., fight off weak poison, heal quicker from a bone break, etc.), but of course genes, environmental factors and access to quality medical care will also play a significant role.

If your goal is to drink poison and live, I’d try the Christian Fundamentalists. But if your goal is lasting physical and energetic strength, taoism is a pretty good path.

Hope that helps.

let me share with you some info about another immortal of the lipan apache of sw u.s. and nw mexico. his name is stalking wolf and referred to affectionatelya dn respectfully as grandfather by his students. he ended up settling inthe east and training one tom brown, jr. who now runs the tracker school which teaches wilderness survival, tracking, awareness and the spiritual teachings of grandfather. grandfather had perfect health into his 90’s at which time he chose to move on to other realms, though he still appears here physically when he wants to. according to tom, grandfather could eat poison hemlock and then shit it out undigested. when grandfather was in his 80’s, he could outrun tom in both speed and distance, though tom was only 15, and we’re talking some distance, like ultramarathons. so whatever happened to white cloud, i don’t know. ahving been a student of tom’s, i don’t necessarily believe what he says about grandfather, but i sure do give it some weight based on what i’ve seen adn experienced at his school. and then you have the ren farong types in china who are in their 80’s, in perfect health, and full of pep. the only way to know for sure what is going to happen is to paly out the journey oursleves and see where it takes us. it is about the journey afterall, not the destination. all the fun is in getting there.

But that implication leads to increasingly silly positions, like White Cloud CHOSE to die of liver poisoning or, alternatively, that he wasn’t really very good at this taoism stuff.

That’s the secret. 😉 There’s more to Taoism then alchemy, sometimes.

This is in a sense restating thoughts already expressed, but I think how long you live and what ails you along the way depend on what part you’re playing in the plot on a local and macro level; greater detachment and compassionate aspiration lead to less chance of being meaninglessly hit by a truck, and greater chance of not dying of dioxin poisoning… Also, conversely, your powerful evil elite buddies may need you around for at least 70 years, because you’re an important key player (the magic of intense greed-need shouldn’t be underestimated…). The idea being that “destiny”(game-like plot) is at a “Shen” level, so to speak, such that it trumps the whole range of spiritual tricks one can learn with certain practices, which are still just great of course, as long as they don’t mess with an important tangent of the greater plotline. No man is an island.