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SD, I have been reading the posting on taobums but still I am not sure what your question is other than that you wonder if the practices are ‘good’ or ‘not so good’.
If you want my opinion on it I am always very careful to answer these things and I tend only answer on those parts that I tried myself or feel in for myself.
1. Although I am using the Taoist path I am not a Taoist, I am Western using the Taoist path, I will never be A Taoist ‘pur sang’ because I do not have any Chinese/Eastern blood nor lineage. Since many emphasize the ‘importance’ of lineage I have to catalogue myself as a progressive neo-Taoist, that is why I like Michaels’ teachings since he is adapting and changing, is creative and inventive and is dedicated to make it eatable for Westerns. Although many dislike this and feel it is untruthful and not part of a lineage… So what, the man has a talent and we are lucky he wants to share it. So in your case if you feel any resonance or attraction for whatever reason with the Tigress path try it.
BE TRUE TO YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT OTHERS THINK OR SAY.2. Anyways going back to White Tigress, saying the above, I feel these practices are part of a cultural time and place that is not resonating with me as such. I tend to read things and take parts that resonate with my body or psyche and see how I can use them as the person I am in the here and now. Meaning since I am changing all the time, sometimes very little sometimes making jumps, shedding my skin all the time, I use different elements at different times, having a whole pallet of colors and tastes, making my own picture every day.
BE CREATIVE AND ADAPTIVE, LISTEN WITH OPEN EARS AND OPEN HEART.3. So in this light I do not judge these women on their particular path, what the hell do I know how their lives were, what the true meaning of their practice was.
I can only say that the idea of doing it as described in the book is going against my personal feelings. I just wonder from the Western mind perspective how this sort of practice effect the deeper psyche. Unless you shut off some parts of your emotional body I tend to think it is hard on the heart to not feel ‘used’ at some level as a Green dragon, and not feel any ‘jealousy’ on the part of the Jade dragon.
Unless the Jade dragon has voyeurstic tendancies and the Tigress is giving her Jade dragon deep sexual and emotional pleasure. Again hard to say what is right or wrong.
BE TRUTHFUL TO YOUR DEEPEST FEELINGS.4. Some suggest it is part of Black magic. Well even in or through black magic there are lessons to learn. The question is do we change and do we change for the better? Is it not so that we sometimes need to meet our shadows or go through the dark side of life to understand or see a deeper truth. Sometimes it is a very very thin line between ‘good’ and ‘bad’. And do we not all use each other to some extend?
The question is do you give back for what you receive or take. Are you part of the eternal recycle circle or do you just take, hold on, not able or wanting to let go for your benefit or growth?
Is greed or fear feeding your taking or are you able to share and give in a similar way as you took?
In other words:
WHERE IS THE LOVE IN YOUR PROCESS?Maybe if you can ponder on those 4 sentences you have an answer to your deeper question on your path and practice?
These are just some thoughts, maybe not what you really wanted to ask but that is what came up in me as response to you.
Love
WEndyHello Wendy, thx for answering.
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””Wendy wrote “”””””””SD, I have been reading the posting on taobums but still I am not sure what your question is other than that you wonder if the practices are ‘good’ or ‘not so good’.””””””””””””””””””””””””
Not exactly if they are good or not in the sence of if they work. What struggles me and have struggles my mind all since I read about the system for the first time is something like if it is immoral to use the green dragons the way they are used by white tigresses. One of my first posts on the white tigress system was “white tigress/es is/are using cruesl methods…” was about the use of the green dragons.
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””Wendy wrote “”””””””””””””
If you want my opinion on it I am always very careful to answer these things and I tend only answer on those parts that I tried myself or feel in for myself.1. Although I am using the Taoist path I am not a Taoist, I am Western using the Taoist path, I will never be A Taoist ‘pur sang’ because I do not have any Chinese/Eastern blood nor lineage. Since many emphasize the ‘importance’ of lineage I have to catalogue myself as a progressive neo-Taoist, that is why I like Michaels’ teachings since he is adapting and changing, is creative and inventive and is dedicated to make it eatable for Westerns. Although many dislike this and feel it is untruthful and not part of a lineage… So what, the man has a talent and we are lucky he wants to share it. So in your case if you feel any resonance or attraction for whatever reason with the Tigress path try it.
BE TRUE TO YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT OTHERS THINK OR SAY.
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””Regarding me I have not jet classified myself, sometimes say I am a taoist but haven’t realy classified jet. I think also Mantak Chia did change and are still changing the practise. I like it when things are changable, then they are alive and real, and not dogma. I am realy interested in Michael Winnd work and have decided to continue with hes material in my yoga group, when we are finnished with the taoist yoga and sexual energy book by Yudelove. The book are completely right for me in the moment, it encourage me to start iron shirt which I think might be of greate importance for me. It has fusion in it which I think is a practise that realy suits me.
I like some parts of the white tigress system and are studying three courses whith Hsi Lai for the moment. I did the meditation on the original cavity and got some spirtitual guidance during that practise, that told me to continue. It was a connection with my ansestors, by the way the point is cauld ansestors hall also. I have also done the nine jade dragons massage and like it wery much. I am not shote about if I am so dedicated so that I will start a three years serious practise period with a white tigress, but I might be in the future. It is a question íf there is a possibility to organaise both of our lifes so that it works in a nice way. And both have to be realy serious about it, then it might be the right thing to do.
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
2. Anyways going back to White Tigress, saying the above, I feel these practices are part of a cultural time and place that is not resonating with me as such. I tend to read things and take parts that resonate with my body or psyche and see how I can use them as the person I am in the here and now. Meaning since I am changing all the time, sometimes very little sometimes making jumps, shedding my skin all the time, I use different elements at different times, having a whole pallet of colors and tastes, making my own picture every day.
BE CREATIVE AND ADAPTIVE, LISTEN WITH OPEN EARS AND OPEN HEART.3. So in this light I do not judge these women on their particular path, what the hell do I know how their lives were, what the true meaning of their practice was.
I can only say that the idea of doing it as described in the book is going against my personal feelings. I just wonder from the Western mind perspective how this sort of practice effect the deeper psyche. Unless you shut off some parts of your emotional body I tend to think it is hard on the heart to not feel ‘used’ at some level as a Green dragon, and not feel any ‘jealousy’ on the part of the Jade dragon.
Unless the Jade dragon has voyeurstic tendancies and the Tigress is giving her Jade dragon deep sexual and emotional pleasure. Again hard to say what is right or wrong.
BE TRUTHFUL TO YOUR DEEPEST FEELINGS.
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””One thing is that the practise if done in the west has to be adapted to suit our culture. Some of the rules that the tigress and jade dragon follows might have to be changed, like Michael Winn changes things.
Yes it is not easy to say what is right or wrong. Perhaps this it what I try to do anyway on some general basis. But moral issues according to taoists should not follow rules, you have to feel and think what is right in the moment.
Shorely enough there has to be a real good understunding betwean the tigress and the jade dragon to be able to manage such things as jelousy. Even though that part shorely enough much be hard sometimes, it might develope people to go thrue it togehter in a loving way.
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
4. Some suggest it is part of Black magic. Well even in or through black magic there are lessons to learn. The question is do we change and do we change for the better? Is it not so that we sometimes need to meet our shadows or go through the dark side of life to understand or see a deeper truth. Sometimes it is a very very thin line between ‘good’ and ‘bad’. And do we not all use each other to some extend?
The question is do you give back for what you receive or take. Are you part of the eternal recycle circle or do you just take, hold on, not able or wanting to let go for your benefit or growth?
Is greed or fear feeding your taking or are you able to share and give in a similar way as you took?
In other words:
WHERE IS THE LOVE IN YOUR PROCESS?Maybe if you can ponder on those 4 sentences you have an answer to your deeper question on your path and practice?
These are just some thoughts, maybe not what you really wanted to ask but that is what came up in me as response to you.
Love
WEndy
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””Perhaps it wasn’t realy the answers I was expected to get. But I had no clear qustion and was unsertain which direction your response would be. Anyway you have helped me come closer to a solution about how to think about the use of green dragons. I think the question will remain with me a time further, beacase I feel I need to see this part of the white tigress system from many different angles and with differnt spectacles.
For me personally the question of green dragons is not actual in my life. For the first thing I am not a woman so I should not do this things. But I might be serious interested in the system and in that aspect I want to udnerstund it and know how I feel about it, and for the momoent the only difficult part is the practise with the green dragons, that I can’t decide what I think about.
When I found the universal tao I new that this would be a serious interest for the rest of my life. I feel wery atached to taoist yoga. Even though I feel I am at a beginners level I also feel the serious interest in me for it. Unfortunately have my teachers changed to David Verdesis school the thunder path and I have realy no universal tao teacher I can go to for the moment. I do not travel beacase of the symtom in my illness. So when I got the opportunity to take courses with Hsi Lai over internet I had no doubt about that this was the next step in my development. There is also a underlying surch for methods that might help me with my illness. In Hsi Lais book for males there was a story of the bamboo imortal who was a monk that have had a serious kidney weakness during hes early years that only did get better with this sorts of practises. Since I see my proplem as partly low yang in the kidneys I has another reason to try this out, together with other treatment of course. That is the two main reasons for why I started the practise in the white tigress system together with one of the girls in my yoga group. So far I have done one course in the eight peaces of a brocade that is a real nice qigong that I realy enjoy to do.
Thanks Wendy for your response!
S D
Maybe there is one thing that you might like as my take on the practice itself.
The fact that the women are not allowing intercourse with a green dragon. From what I feel and know is that intercourse is a deep heart connected ‘practice’ (or should be one). Since they just want the green dragons energy and do not want to ‘commit’ in any heart connected bond makes this practice for me personal a hard path not a heart path.
Another point I struggle with in the Tigress practice… for me the seed of a man is the most beautiful gift a women can get, it is full with his heart essence (if he connects and really loves his partner). It is a wonderful blissful gift that opens a womans heart and inner eye/crown. The fact they use the seed through the mouth only, is by-passing the heart and is heading right for the upper dantian bliss.
I can understand that maybe in a culture where heartfelt relationships were less obvious because of emotional suppression it was a sort of ‘by-pass practice’.
Why using the heart when you can have bliss through oral sex…But I love the heart.
I am very much a feeling person.
My partner is my Universe and I am his.
I do not want to by-pass, I want it all.As an extra note:
Maybe you remembered my postings on polyamory and me exploring that path about three years ago. I did not feel happy in my marriage and felt I wanted to break free, I saw a pathway in polyamory at that time and was open to explore this.
The result of this, I found a lover BECAUSE I had opened myself to that path, yet once I had fallen in love so deeply there was no other option for me than divorce, and the idea of having a polyamorous relationship was just NO option any more.
So again SD, we never know what is around the corner once we let go prejudice and judgements… it is freeing our mind and soul and gives us what we need….
Hello Wendy: I liked your comments wery much!
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Maybe there is one thing that you might like as my take on the practice itself.The fact that the women are not allowing intercourse with a green dragon. From what I feel and know is that intercourse is a deep heart connected ‘practice’ (or should be one). Since they just want the green dragons energy and do not want to ‘commit’ in any heart connected bond makes this practice for me personal a hard path not a heart path.
Another point I struggle with in the Tigress practice… for me the seed of a man is the most beautiful gift a women can get, it is full with his heart essence (if he connects and really loves his partner). It is a wonderful blissful gift that opens a womans heart and inner eye/crown. The fact they use the seed through the mouth only, is by-passing the heart and is heading right for the upper dantian bliss.
I can understand that maybe in a culture where heartfelt relationships were less obvious because of emotional suppression it was a sort of ‘by-pass practice’.
Why using the heart when you can have bliss through oral sex…But I love the heart.
I am very much a feeling person.
My partner is my Universe and I am his.
I do not want to by-pass, I want it all.
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””I’m a bit of after my long celibacy period. So I have difficulties comment you on this. But realy it got right into my heart so to say. It also clearifies your perspective on the whtie tigress practises as well suited for another time and culture. This will be something of the best critisism of the wite tigress practise I ever heard about so far.
I have been thinking about the difference from what I have heard from another teacher in indian tantra that I have courses with from time to time. She sais polyamore is ok if you love both or all the persons. You should not have sex without a heart connection. This sounds in princip right for me and I have noticed the difference between the green dragon practise and that.
It sounds to me rigth at least for the moment that the other non heart connected practise migth be a result of a opressive society.
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
As an extra note:Maybe you remembered my postings on polyamory and me exploring that path about three years ago. I did not feel happy in my marriage and felt I wanted to break free, I saw a pathway in polyamory at that time and was open to explore this.
The result of this, I found a lover BECAUSE I had opened myself to that path, yet once I had fallen in love so deeply there was no other option for me than divorce, and the idea of having a polyamorous relationship was just NO option any more.
So again SD, we never know what is around the corner once we let go prejudice and judgements… it is freeing our mind and soul and gives us what we need….
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””Yes I remember wery well your divorce after you reminds me of it. What happened with the new love? The white tigress practises and ideas is interesting in that perspective that it force you to give up some of yours prejudices and that opens up things and possibilities. But it is realy easy to think things about relationships, as a celibate, that not works when coming into reality in a real relationship. A loving passionate relationship kind of knock you out and your ideas migth not at all work, that makes you a bit owerhelmed, and you have to live in the moment without forcing things to be as you did think them to be before your met your love.
S D
SD and Wendy,
I remember when I found the “White Tigress” (WT) book that it got me very excited – women wanting lots of sex! At the time I was in a sexless marriage – well, 2 times per year – so the white tigress idea was very exciting.
Now that I am in a deep and fulfilling relationship, I understand the WT approach very differently. The WT approach sees the world as having limited energy and that to reach enlightenment, you need to gather energy from others. The approach reminds me very much of the Matrix, with the green dragons being the people who the energy is being harvested from.
In contrast, alchemy, and love is a deep form of alchemy, allows us to tap into the unlimited energy that underlies and runs through all existence. For me, the WT approach is at odds with this view. If you are into the WT approach you will always be needing other people to get energy from. If you are a true alchemist, you resonate with other energies, as Wendy so nicely describes.
So, I am more judgmental than Wendy – I say WT is a dead end road that at best traps you into a limited view of energy and at worse gets you to abuse other people. The alchemical love path, in contrast, is a harder row to hoe, but offers much deeper and stable energy. That said, I agree with Wendy that we must pursue what pulls us, and learn the good and bad from it.
Chris
Hello Voice
Thx for that
Yes it seems to be a limitation of the WT practise that you need green dragons as woman and whtie tigress as jade dragon. My personal goal have been to in my life be able to deal with my sexuality in a positive way as a celibate, as biing in a deep hearted relationship and perhaps also being a polyamore periods. I want to be able to do all this in my life. I have never though lived the polyamore state and I have still much to learn in the state of deep hearted monogamous relationship. Well I might ad a fourth situation that is to be able to practise the three years period with a white tigress, if that situation ever seems right for me and the white tigress.
I want to say though that after the three years practise as a jade dragon whith a white tigress you can turn into the limitness energies and continue your practise as a celibate if you prefer to. Another thing is in all system you have to replenisch your Jing so that you are able to have excess to all the energies around you, I think.
My conclusion with the green dragons practise for the moment is that I need to see how it works on a practical level, with myself or with someone close to me to realy judge it and feel if I as a person like it or not. Or accept it.
SD
Ask the I-Ching about doing green dragon practices, and please report back. Interesting to know that this is not Neigong or Alchemical imagination.
“””””””””””””””Ask the I-Ching about doing green dragon practices, and please report back.”””””””””””””””””””””””
Yes, I counsel that book from time to time. But in this matter I am not there jet. The practise has already it course, for the moment I am waiting for a emeil from hsi lai to see how we should continue with our practises. The question about the green dragons that is en my head again and again, might be an indication of a larger question. That is what I think about this practise in general and if it suits me in particular. I’m not shore. But it is interesting to investigate this path and learn from it.
“””””””””””””””””Interesting to know that this is not Neigong or Alchemical imagination.””””””””””””””””””””””””””2
Yes, as far as I can see there is nothing that say it would be such imaginations.
S D
Oh I am still interested to see what comes up for you if you ask the Yi Jing about continued practice. You know they took allot of internal alchemy and tried to externalize it with poor results, aka dead emperors. I am curious of the effects of internalizing this process, you may get faster and safer feed back/results.
Hello Dog. Confusion. Can you please clarify what you mean.
“”””””””You know they took allot of internal alchemy and tried to externalize it with poor results, aka dead emperors.””””””””””””
Who did, why, what is extrarnalised practises?
“””””””” I am curious of the effects of internalizing this process, you may get faster and safer feed back/results.””””””””
What do you meen by internalizing this process? which process? how with I ching?
S D
External alchemist took inner alchemical symbolism such as mercury, lead, sulfur in attempt to create the elixir of immortality. You can internalize the symbolism of dragon and tiger and there interactions, Taoists have in the past.. Just remember to keep it heart centered and grounded, or else. It also maid me think of D&D dorks getting there freak on. It certainly maid me giggle. 🙂
Hello Dog.
I do not realy relate to your post. Perhaps I am to much into Hsi Lais descriptions on this. Of course there have been both external and internal alchemists and perhaps also there mixtures. It is the same in the west.
I do see the white tigress system as a totaly internal approach. All the methods are internal as far as I can see.
S D
So the practices are NeiGong/meditation? I thought you where saying they where apart of bed room arts. I am confused now too.:)
Hello Dog
“”””””””So the practices are NeiGong/meditation? I thought you where saying they where apart of bed room arts. I am confused now too.:) “””””””””””””””””
I guess you mean a part of bed room art above. Anyway, as I understund the word Neigong it is it! The bedroom part is just a small bit of the practises! But the controversial part! The goal of the practise is to reach immortality. It is set up in stages with the following names on them:
1 Gathering and milling the golden elixir
2 Opening the ancestral hall
3 Advancing the spiritual illumination
4 Aquiring the true primordial seed
5 Inbibing the Dragon- Tigress pearl
6 Entering the wintry palace
7 Forming the spiritual fetus
8 Realising the immortal spirit
9 Returning to the originIt is as I see it a system of real taoist yoga, with similar or partly the same steps as in the other systems. If Neigong is internal cultivation of energy, as I see it, it is definitly that.
S D
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