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Hello Singing Ocean:
I will engage you in a discussion on Nei Yeh.
I would request you do not make false statements of what I say. For example, you state that I say one does not need to cultivate or even do alchemy, that all one needs to do is study the Tao The Ching. This is a false quote, a false statement and a distortion. If you look at my posts on that discussion which you entered, I suggested that when people do their Tao alchemy they also read the Tao The Ching, do both together.
I think the fundamental difference between us is I believe we have everything we need now, while you believe we are creating something that we do not have now and if we die we are incomplete. Read Nei Yeh page 103.
I suggest if you quote from the Nei Yeh do not change the words, even if they seem minor.
You picked the Nei Yeh as the book to confirm the alchemy you practice, that this is the definitive book to support your view, I would appreciate it if you will show in this discussion how it does this.
SO:
“:Te” or virtue has always been historically associated with the vital Jing Shen (the organs) through classical chinese medicine, thus cultivation of virtue is body cultivation, although only semi local as the shen are on a different vibrational frequency.
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It is not correct the virtues and spirits of the organs were always in the classic texts.The spirits and virtues of the organs were added to the Nei Ching by Yang Shan Yi, in the Sui dynasty, 581-618AD. The Nei Ching was revised for centuries, not until the Tang dynasty does it take shape we see now. It did not have 81-chapters, this was changed in tang dynasty.
Nei Yeh, One
1. The vital jing of all things:
2. It is this that brings them to life.
3. It generates the five grains below
4. And becomes the constellated stars above.
5. When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
6. We call it ghostly and spirit (shen).
7. When stored within the chests of human beings,
8. We call them sages.
(note: if it is stored in the chests of human beings, it is semi-local, and how does it get there? through cultivation!)
*****************************************Much of the book is in metaphor.
The Chest means the center, as the mid point from heaven and earth, its telling us to stay in the center, in the Zhong and heaven and earth are revealed, our true nature is revealed, we are sages.Read pages 101-103, especially mid paragraph on page 103, this is very clear, the Way is always present in humans, not a sometime thing, not something you create from something else, but just centering. This will be a continual theme in Nei Yeh.
BG
I read the Nei Yeh as a practical meditation manual, not a metaphorical treatise. I am not changing words, i am using the original chinese characters which I took time to research since I do not read chinese fluently. I think the original chinese words (jing, qi & shen) resonate more with Healing dao practitioners than “essence, breath and numinous”, since those are the words that michael winn and mantak chia use in their practices.
I will not address your claim that I am distorting your information because I think you distort my information constantly, or rather just claim your view as the absolute and only truth.
Don’t quote pages for me to read, I thought we are having a discussion of particular verses and I have just posted one for us to discuss, if there is another one you want to discuss then post it.
Interesting point about the virtues being added to classical chinese medicine at a later point, I will have to look into that. At lest the writer of the nei yeh and dao de jing was aware of the virtues as they do come up in one of the verse, maybe we can discuss that one too.
Reading verse one in a practical rather than metaphorical way, the idea of storing something implies that it must be gathered in some way, and considering that China was very centered around agriculture at that time (the five grains as mentioned above), don’t you think that all of this points towards cultivation of shen?
Sure we could read it in a metaphorical sense, but then all kinds of things could be extrapolated from it. I don’t have the book with me right now, so to clarify, is the character for “chest” the character Zhong? if so, this could either equally point towards any of the vital organs or even the Zhong Mai, the core channel, or simply the “Center”, if the concept of the Zhong Mai was not elucidated at that point.
I like your point about the humans being between heaven and earth, and the idea that people finding the balance point in the midpoint between the two will help them to cultivate their shen. When you say that people become sages when they “realize their true nature” points to a more buddhist idea of sudden enlightenment or enlightenment through realization rather than cultivation implying that nothing need be done rather than realize the true nature…how is that accomplished, through mindfulness (really, I do want to know the method)? Again, this is a basic daoist technique (the inner smile), and the goal of alchemy is really to give substance to spirit, to “store the shen within the jing”, and integrate the two as I see is mentioned in verse one. We do have all of these components all the time, but not the result of the integration of the two…I might have water and tea leaves at home but by heating the water and steeping the leaves for the desired time, I can create a great cup of tea rather than just drinking a cup of water and chewing on some crunchy leaves (which is great too but not the same).
I read the Nei Yeh as a practical meditation manual, not a metaphorical treatise. I am not changing words, i am using the original chinese characters which I took time to research since I do not read chinese fluently. I think the original chinese words (jing, qi & shen) resonate more with Healing dao practitioners than “essence, breath and numinous”, since those are the words that michael winn and mantak chia use in their practices.
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Ok, but the author of the book choose specific words for a reason.Don’t quote pages for me to read, I thought we are having a discussion of particular verses and I have just posted one for us to discuss, if there is another one you want to discuss then post it.
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Sorry, I cant agree with this. Roth discusses the verses in detail in the book, the pages I gave you are the analysis and comments on the first verse, so it connects directly. I believe his work is very valuable in understanding what the verses many mean.Interesting point about the virtues being added to classical chinese medicine at a later point, I will have to look into that. At lest the writer of the nei yeh and dao de jing was aware of the virtues as they do come up in one of the verse, maybe we can discuss that one too.
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Sure, they often refer to virtues in a person, not necessarily related to specific organs.From my work it appears the assigning of the virtues, spirits to the organs comes from Tao Hongjing, the organizer of San Ching Taoism, 453-536.
As a side note, its his book on Herbology that is the oldest unified work we have, in that book there is no connection of herbs to organs or channels. All this comes later but its presented as if it is 5,000 years old, a common thing in Chinese culture.
Reading verse one in a practical rather than metaphorical way, the idea of storing something implies that it must be gathered in some way, and considering that China was very centered around agriculture at that time (the five grains as mentioned above), don’t you think that all of this points towards cultivation of shen?
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I view them in both ways.
The vital essence of all things:
It is this that brings them to life.
It generates the five grains below
And becomes the constellated stars above.
When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
We call it ghostly and numinous.
When stored within the chests of human beings,
We call them sages.The five grain is referring to the Way/Tao creating all of life, heaven above, earth below and humanity. Five grains refers to earth below.
Sure we could read it in a metaphorical sense, but then all kinds of things could be extrapolated from it. I don’t have the book with me right now, so to clarify, is the character for “chest” the character Zhong? if so, this could either equally point towards any of the vital organs or even the Zhong Mai, the core channel, or simply the “Center”, if the concept of the Zhong Mai was not elucidated at that point.
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If this book is written in Warring states, the oldest book on Chinese medicine we have in Ma Wangdui texts, in them there are no Extra Channels, only 11-channels, no points, no acupuncture. So based on history i dont think it refers to Chong Mai. Chong Mai can mean movement, thoroughfare, which is moving Jing in to action. This verse is referring to holding or storing, not moving.I like your point about the humans being between heaven and earth, and the idea that people finding the balance point in the midpoint between the two will help them to cultivate their shen. When you say that people become sages when they “realize their true nature” points to a more buddhist idea of sudden enlightenment or enlightenment through realization rather than cultivation implying that nothing need be done rather than realize the true nature…how is that accomplished, through mindfulness (really, I do want to know the method)? Again, this is a basic daoist technique (the inner smile), and the goal of alchemy is really to give substance to spirit, to “store the shen within the jing”, and integrate the two as I see is mentioned in verse one. We do have all of these components all the time, but not the result of the integration of the two…I might have water and tea leaves at home but by heating the water and steeping the leaves for the desired time, I can create a great cup of tea rather than just drinking a cup of water and chewing on some crunchy leaves (which is great too but not the same).
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The texts does talk about basic ways to achieve it, its in the non verse areas.bg
Just to clarify what we are discussing, my view is not that we are creating something we do not already have, but that we are integrating forces that are present in all people to cultivate and strengthen the presence of Yuan Qi (I’ll say it again…to strengthen its presence). An analogy would be the study of music…is everyone born a concert pianist? no, they are not, they have to practice for many years to achieve this. Is everyone born with the ability to diagnose illness and needle all acupuncture points accurately? Of course not, they have to study for many years to achieve this. When people develop a skill (gong – qi gong or nei dan gong) it gives them certain benefits that they would not otherwise have. Likewise a Nei Dan Gong practitioner has the benefit of being able to communicate on a deeper energetic level than someone who has not cultivated that skill. The benefit of being able to function on an energetic level more skillfully gives the practitioner more ability (in my opinion) to maintain awareness while awake in a body (being aware of emotional communications on a qi and shen level), while asleep (maintaining lucidity in the dream state/conscious functioning while the outer senses are asleep), or after death (when there is no longer a body attached to the consciousness).
You make some interesting historical points, it would be great if you could reference them. If certain scholars wrote or adjusted classic treatises, such as tao hongjing connecting the virtues and the organs (reference please for the book quoted on page 453-536?), this might point to the fact that what they are writing about may have already been present for thousands of years as either an oral tradition or a fact that they are just now recognizing, or they might be inventing it and forging a new pathway. These questions are another subject…and one question I will ask is if the organs being associated with the virtue qualities is relatively new as you say, then how old is “classical chinese medicine” as presented by certain authours lonny jarrett? I notice that you also say that tao hongjing’s book on herbology is presented as being 5000 years old so how do we know that there is not an oral tradition of the organs being connected to certain virtue qualities present before his book…did he invent it, or was it already around (we don’t know, but I would assume that it is part of an older tradition)?
I also want to point out that many of your answers are without context (“OK, but the authour of the book choose specific words for a reason”) and conveniently gloss over pertinent points that I have made, often in the same paragraph (the Nei Yeh is a practical meditation manual, not a metaphorical treatise). So, instead of just making broad contextless statements, try and keep the original direction and points of view in mind in order to refine and provide clarity and further the discussion. In fact, it seems that the style of your answers reflects your viewpoint: “we already have everything we need and only need to realize our eternal presence in the Tao, and (presumably) maintain awareness in the present, nothing else is needed, and everything else is unnecessary and a futile pursuit”,
I will make another post shortly to address the points made and further the discussion.
You use Quotes as if you are just restating something I stated, I did not say the quaoted statement you wrote below. I asked you not to misquote me, if it happens again I will move on and end my participation in this discussion.
“we already have everything we need and only need to realize our eternal presence in the Tao, and (presumably) maintain awareness in the present, nothing else is needed, and everything else is unnecessary and a futile pursuit”,
I gave you the years of Tao Hongjing’s life, not pages in a book. Go buy Tao’s book on herbology to confirm there is no info on connection to herbs and channels and organs, Divene Farmer’s Materia Medica. I did not say Tao Hongjing said the knowledge is 5,000 years old. I said in chinese culture they say things like that, like this was given by Yellow Emperor or Shen Nong and on and on. They are always attaching things to gods or immortals which many will not question.
There is alot in the history of chinese culture and medicine, take a course on it if you can if you have not. I will mention things when I feel its beneficial.
We can say things existed for a long time before we can track it from a historical persepctive, one can say it but that does not make it true, it may be and it may not be, thats the truth if you have zero information to verify.
If you want to know what was known in the Warring States read the Ma Wagdui texts on medicine, this is what we know now and its going to be very different than what people think when their view is based on current Nei Jing versions.
I will address your comments in the way I prefer, if you do not find it of some value lets end our dialogue. The middle of Roth’s book is very revealing about this book and I will include it.
My intention is not to use this book to suport your views or my views, but to explore what it means without a filter.
Jarret info seems to come from Worsley and Jeffrey Yuen’s teachings, he gives very little timing of the information, if you study Jeffrey’s work you will see exactly what I mean, he lays out the history and lists dynasties, people, etc. There is nothing wrong with information being created only 1,000 years ago, not 10,000.
For example, in the nei jing, nan jing, jia yi jing, the classic acupuncture texts, there is no information in the locations of the Yin and Yang Wei channels, ZERO, ZERO, they do not exist, its about 1,000 years before it appears. And they DO NOT exist on the arms, once again they do not exist on the arms, but people keep saying it does. This is one example of false knowledge.
bg
I just returned home so will take some time to look at the Nei Yeh and other texts mentioned (which I did not have with me in the last few days.
It is really funny that you say the Yin and Yang Wei channels do not exist, That is one of the main things I have been noticing lately, doing some magui baguazhang qigong that just pumps the earth qi up into the body and mainly through the yin yang qiao and wei channels…you can say that they are not in certain texts, or that virtues are not associated with the organs because they are not in the texts…but if I have felt them there, they are real for me and I don’t need you or anyone else to tell what they are or are not. I have been feeling them especially in the arms.
Once again, I appreciate your historical knowledge, and efforts to sort the information out along existing timelines, but the issue is a complex one because the alchemical teachings of one cloud passed to mantak chia come from a tradition that apparently was not written down, so we don’t know how old it is, and in the long run it doesn’t really matter. I do still intend to discuss the Nei Yeh in regards to its alchemical references of converting jing-qi-shen (alchemy), and also get back to our original discussion which was “are alchemists creating something that was not already there”.
You also CONVENIENTLY chose not to comment on my explanation of GONG in regards to qi gong and nei dan gong, and how that differs from the idea that we already have everything we need., Like I said, alchemy is really about developing a skill.
How is it possible to discuss something without “filters”, you have your view, and I have my view, we each have free will to do that! Really you are saying “stop reading your own interpretation into the meaning of the text” which is a large part of the problem in the first place when we discuss the dao de jing…you want me to interpret it the same way you do. Maybe that’s why so many different people have given different commentaries on the dao de jing over the years, and there are hundreds of different translations of it. Instead of getting each other to agree on our own interpretations, we should just each give our own view…it doesn’t matter if we agree or not because you do your practice and I do mine.
What i notice in Bagua’s comments is that the TAO is always present and has always been present in every moment. I think this is incontrovertibly true as it is built into most definitions of Tao, both Chinese and Western.
Singing Ocean is not talking about the Tao being present, but whether the human alchemical adept has REALIZED TAO in every moment, and what it takes to effect that. Bagua seems to be implying “just realize it, just be aware of it”.
Singing Ocean is saying the TAO itself is not defining itself to the human, it is human free will/cultivation practice that is defining how the human cultivator experiences Tao.
So my conclusion is that Bagua and Singing Ocean are talking past one another, not to each other. Each is focusing on an aspect of the truth of Tao that is important to them. But the place where they intersect comes in the issue of what scholar Chad Hansen calls the moral imperative of the Tao: what is it that Tao is offering to humans that allows them to live a higher spiritual (more virtuous, de) life?
This may be an argument about using yin (receptive) vs. yang (creative) methods. Do I just allow Tao to enter me, and change me, or do I reach out to the elements of Tao that I know will accelerate or deepen my Tao process?
michael
Well, what I said was in the classic texts there is not channel or point info on the Wei Channels, this is a fact. I never said they do not exist, what i did say is if you go to any acupuncture book and look at their channels they are not on the arms, this is a fact. I know why some put them on the arms, long story.
I do not know what One Cloud told M. Chia, and what he presents based on his research on the topic and the contributors to his materials.
We have six main channels systems: Cutaneous, tendo-muscle, Luo, Primary, Divergent and Eight Extraordinary, you may be feeling them in your arms, you may be just labeling them the Wei Channels.
I practice tao alchemy, other tao cultivation and other traditions, in this way i can look at books like the Nei Yeh and try to see what it means from numerous views, multiple filters, not one.
I have nothing against tao alchemy, i practiced it, we just view what it does differently, that’s all.
bg
Hi all,
Michael commented, possibly rehtorically, “Do I just allow Tao to enter me, and change me, or do I reach out to the elements of Tao that I know will accelerate or deepen my Tao process?”. For whatever little my opinion and understanding is, I would suggest the answer is both. The Tao is the middle path.
Humbly balance and harmony to all
Nei Yeh, page 104
“Inward training defines inner power (te) in a very concrete psychological sense. It is linked to both the vital essence and the Way. It is what enables the sage to secure vital essence, and it is the perceptible manifestation of within human experience. It cannot be controlled by force or will or use of language, thus implying that it rises within awareness devoid of individual will and dualistic thought.”
Any thoughts?
Hello Michael:
“So my conclusion is that Bagua and Singing Ocean are talking past one another, not to each other. Each is focusing on an aspect of the truth of Tao that is important to them. But the place where they intersect comes in the issue of what scholar Chad Hansen calls the moral imperative of the Tao: what is it that Tao is offering to humans that allows them to live a higher spiritual (more virtuous, de) life?
This may be an argument about using yin (receptive) vs. yang (creative) methods. Do I just allow Tao to enter me, and change me, or do I reach out to the elements of Tao that I know will accelerate or deepen my Tao process?”
********************************There is always yang within yin and yin within yang, they are never separate.
Yang contains receptiveness, you are doing yang activities to become more receptive.I don’t believe its this or that, you are doing a yang or yin practice, there are numerous methods to fit the timing of a wide range of people and their unique existing condition.
Within so called Yin practices there is Yang or activities.
All this does not address the fundamental topic, are we the tao now, do we have everything we need now or are we creating something that does not exist now?
As humans how can we align to allow the natural unfolding of our life, this is a key thing, how can we allow the natural expression of our life, our destiny? Its not about a specific goal or experience to be attained, but aligning to the tao and experiencing life without the stagnations and distortions each of us has, its seems Wu Wei is the way to obtain this from a taoist view.
regards,
bgSo in other words…go with the flow?
The non-approach is the best approach? Or all approaches are the best, or there is no best approach, just do what you feel?
Do any of these answers paraphrase/approximate your response?
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