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Okay, so if “Everything is always balanced”, then everyone’s lives must be automatically perfect, and people have no needs, wants or desires.
I am perfectly aware that if there is a whole that contains both yin and yang, by nature of the whole it must be complete and therefore be balanced. By “speeding up the storyline” do you mean simply speeding up a scripted life path or speeding up the PROCESS of life?
To me the process of life involves choices that exist within a particular location in the lifestream (the location is the result of the choices made by your parents, earth forces etc.)…these choices can take us one way or another that could result in a very different life path. I could have been a christian or a buddhist if I had made certain life choices.
To me, these choices represent BALANCING the different currents of the lifestream that are coming at us in order to exist in the current we choose to be in.
In the same way that we are a microcosm of the whole, we also contain currents of yin and yang as do our external lives (the result of larger currents affected by the free will of the people we interact with), and although the whole is always balanced, we still have to steer the course (balancing it for our chosen direction).
To leave things up to “chance and fate” is also a choice, and seems to me to be more of a way to avoid choice. To do alchemy in itself is a choice, we can choose to practice or not to practice, or just to “let things be as they are”. Do any of these choices make a difference in peoples lives? To me they do.
So basically you are saying that the personal self is being directed to do certain things by the collective self, but the personal self is unaware of it.
My answer is mostly speculation, but this is how I feel it: Instead of the collective self saying “you need to play tennis”, we get an impulse that might say “you need to complete the experience of expressing yourself through sports”, and we can choose tennis, basketball, boxing or competition snowboarding, or even which tennis club to attend. The process of choosing, of saying “I like this sport but not that one, or this club but not that one” is the process of balancing the lifestream so that we achieve a feeling of completeness or balance in our need to express something. So there is direction in a sense but not specific direction, and we can choose to do it or not.
>>>So basically you are saying that the personal self
>>>is being directed to do certain things by the
>>>collective self, but the personal self is unaware of it.That’s exactly right.
See the thing is, is that the larger self does not operate
in linear time like the smaller self does, so it has
a global perspective. It can see what the smaller self is
going to do, before it does it, and it also acts to pre-plan
the activities.The thing that the larger self is lacking is the direct
experience, which is the reason for the smaller self’s
existence.What the larger self fails to appreciate–
or maybe from its perspective considers irrelevant–is
just how darn long some of the experiential things take
for the smaller self to do.The smaller self, stuck in linear time, often does not
want to play out certain dramas or go through certain
recurring patterns over and over again at the time rate
that is occurring through a “normal life”. This, in
my opinion, is the purpose of alchemy. It allows the smaller
self TO SPEED UP LINEAR TIME with respect to itself, so
that it can still satisfy all the requirements of the
larger self and unfold all of its preplanning, but to
do so at a faster pace.I’ll use a math analogy, since that’s my forte’.
Suppose you are told you have to learn calculus.
You have NO choice in the matter whatsoever.
You are given a calculus book, and told to get to work.
What you are not told, is how long it should take you.
Maybe, for whatever reason, you don’t relish the idea
of spending a year learning calculus. Thus *your freedom*
is in working really hard and intensely, acting as a
really good student, and progressing through the book
at a faster-than-usual pace. You finish the book
in less than half a year. “This is the alchemical process.”
The larger self says “good job” and “here’s your next task”.
The process continues.The benefit to the larger self is the experiential knowledge
which deepens the theoretical knowledge it already has. The
benefit to the smaller self is the training/evolution it is
receiving so that it can eventually be immortal like it’s
big brother. To do so, it must prove itself to be a good student,
working hard and speeding up linear time through alchemy in
order to reach this goal in a single lifetime.>>>My answer is mostly speculation, but this is how I feel it:
>>>Instead of the collective self saying “you need to play tennis”,
>>>we get an impulse that might say “you need to complete
>>>the experience of expressing yourself through sports”,
>>>and we can choose tennis, basketball, boxing or
>>>competition snowboarding, or even which tennis club
>>>to attend. The process of choosing, of saying “I like
>>>this sport but not that one, or this club but not that
>>>one” is the process of balancing the lifestream so that
>>>we achieve a feeling of completeness or balance in our
>>>need to express something. So there is direction in a
>>>sense but not specific direction, and we can choose to
>>>do it or not.No I completely understand your opinion and respect it, but
I JUST DON’T AGREE. I could once again counter by arguing
that the lifestream does not need balancing, and that the
free will you think you have is just an illusion, but I’d
just be repeating myself over and over again like a broken
record. I think you know where I stand here 😉My only question/response to you here is:
Why does it bother you so much that the lower self doesn’t
get the freedom to pick its own path?It’s not like the lower self gets *no* freedom. The lower self
can choose to complete the requests sooner by doing
alchemy and/or spiritual techniques to accelerate to the
next stage.Besides, the larger self that is making the choices IS “you”,
you just don’t realize it. This is the “eternal you” that
bagua hopes people will be able to identify with, so that
they can know “who they really are”.Best,
Steven>>>By “speeding up the storyline” do you mean simply
>>>speeding up a scripted life path or speeding
>>>up the PROCESS of life?They are the SAME thing. The difference is just point-of-view!
>>>To me the process of life involves choices
>>>that exist within a particular location
>>>in the lifestream (the location is the result
>>>of the choices made by your parents, earth forces etc.)
>>>…these choices can take us one way or another
>>>that could result in a very different life path.
>>>I could have been a christian or a buddhist if
>>>I had made certain life choices.But you didn’t make those choices, did you?
Don’t you think your larger self, outside of linear time, already
knew what you were going to get yourself into and if anything
else has been encouraging it all along?>>>To me, these choices represent BALANCING the different currents
>>>of the lifestream that are coming at us [remainder omitted]Here we go again 🙂
>>>In the same way that we are a microcosm of the whole,
>>>we also contain currents of yin and yang as do our
>>>external lives (the result of larger currents affected
>>>by the free will of the people we interact with)Flowing currents sure; but this is not an imbalance.
>>>To leave things up to “chance and fate” is also a choice,
>>>and seems to me to be more of a way to avoid choice.
>>>To do alchemy in itself is a choice, we can choose to
>>>practice or not to practice, or just to “let things
>>>be as they are”. Do any of these choices make a
>>>difference in peoples lives? To me they do.Any choices you make in your day-to-day life that involve
your worldly destiny are not really choices the lower self
is making, despite their appearance of being “free choices”.
They are already dictated by the larger self.
That’s why it’s called a destiny, after all. 🙂Choices to do alchemy practice are choices to speed up the
storyline already in place and are not a deviation from
the wishes of the larger self, they are only supplementary
in nature–acting in a consistent fashion with the hopes
and desires of the larger self. These are sort of the
only “free choices” the lower self gets to make, and they
are done so with full support and permission of the larger
self. Such choices DO make a difference in peoples’ lives,
because they get to escape the “agony of time” in dealing with
certain problems–the time scale of which the larger self
can’t necessarily appreciate.S
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
I respect your viewpoint, but I just see things differently.Smiles to you,
StevenThe big question is this:
What is the “higher self” in your view? Is it personal or collective? Is it an extension of the five shen, manifesting their pure virtue qualities, but still in a personal configuration? Is it an unconscious part of ourselves that exists in formless dimensions but is unable to directly communicate with the personal self? I guess that would be the Ling, or the soul, that still maintains a personal aspect but functions in the formless. Or is it something else you are referring to?
My view is that you are kind of missing the whole point. I completely understand the process of acceleration and the idea of uploading experience to the collective self, but lets examine why we are here.
Once we enter into the physical plane, we have free will and cannot be interfered with by the larger collective self. There are certain needs to be fulfilled from our ancestors, earth energy, planetary and stellar forces that we carry but however we choose to complete those impulses is an open slate. That is the reason WHY we are here, to explore free will and make choices. We can choose not to engage that free will, and be directed by whatever forces we are subject to, but that is also a CHOICE.
Being in Wu Wei represents our physical and energetic operating systems aligning their wills to spontaneously make the right choices to complete our destiny (the impulses we seek to resolve) when faced with opportunities from the shifting forces of the lifestream. The forces of the lifestream will align themselves in our favor if we communicate that clearly, but there are always wildcards.
This is why humans have so much spiritual potential, by creating a microcosm of the collective self HERE, and then developing the ability to communicate that beyond the physical plane, our tiny little insignificant selves are in fact giving the larger whole direction in ways that it is unable to work out for itself.
I do think that the personal self has an operating system that extends outside of the physical, but that part of the self is not scripting our lives or pre-planning everything for us. This operating system is what accounts for synchronicities, and “coincidences” where events are orchestrated so that certain things happen to us that are a result of clear communication of our will interacting with the other energetic forces at play around us. This communication happens “behind the scenes” of the physical plane. Peoples lives can take drastically different directions depending on the choices they make.
Wow, I really dig these terms that came up in this conversation: “lifestream” and “physical/energetic operating system”.
I feel like this is a valid question, and we have just begun the conversation, but we need to clarify certain points like “what is the larger/higher self”?
Alchemy accelerates our destiny (process of energetic completion in physical reality) by allowing us to communicate more clearly with the Wuji (the origin) and the Dao (the great process). By choosing to go back to the source, we maintain equilibrium between the physical and the Wuji by allowing the process to freely communicate between the two ends of the spectrum.
By going back to the source, we are able to communicate more clearly with our origin (but which still remains equal in value to our physical self), we can complete our destiny more effectively by communicating with the source rather than by performing certain outward actions. Completing our destiny through an energetic means reduces the necessity of completion in the physical, and probably narrows the scope of what needs to be completed.
“Returning to the root is called equilibrium
Now as for equilibrium – this is called returning to the natural tendency of things,
And returning to the natural tendency of things is common sense.
Using common sense is acuity,
while failing to use it is to lose control,
and to try to do anything while out of control is to court disaster.”
Dao De Jing, #16Heaven helps those who help themselves Mongolian proverb
Greatness comes to those who take it – Mongol (movie, 2007)
A faithful heart makes wishes come true – CTHD
A story on destiny from a Buddhist point of view (I never thought I would be presenting a Buddhist story haha) It describes a man that has followed the predictions of a fortune teller in every detail. What do you think of this?:
The reason why ordinary people cannot become sages is because they have too many wandering thoughts running through their minds. In our three-day meditation, I have not observed a single thought arise in you. Why?
I replied that Mr. Kong had clearly predicted the entire outcome of my life. I had seen that the time of life, death, promotion and failure are all predestined. There was no use or need for me to think about it or to desire anything. The master smiled and replied,
I thought you were someone of remarkable capabilities! Now I realize you are just an average, ordinary person
Feeling confused by what Master Yun-Gu said, I asked him to explain. He told me that an ordinary person’s mind is forever occupied by wandering and imaginary thoughts, so naturally their life is bound by chi, the energy of yin and yang as well as destiny. We cannot deny the fact that it exists, but only ordinary people are bound by it. Destiny cannot bind those who cultivate great kindness. Nor can destiny bind those who have committed flagrant bad deeds. He told me that for the past twenty years, I had lived my life just as Mr. Kong had predicted and had done nothing to change it. Instead, I became bound by destiny. If I was not considered an ordinary person, who was.
Taken aback, I asked Master Yun-Gu if it was true that we can change our destiny. The Master answered,
We create our own destiny. We seek our own good fortune. It is the true teaching and says so in the Book of Songs and the Book of History. In the Buddhist teachings, it is written that if we wish for and seek wealth, position, a son, a daughter, long life, we can attain them. Since lying is one of the greatest offenses in the Buddha’s teachings, we can be assured that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have no reason to deceive us.I then said I had heard that Mencius once said,
Whatever is sought can be attained. The seeking is in ourselves.
Thanks for the great discussion by the way!
Argument clinic:
[flash=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y]width=425 height=344[/flash]
Thanks for the great discussion by the way!
Argument clinic:
[flash=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y]width=425 height=344[/flash]
@Rainbowbear
>>>Desire, goals, ….. we think we have choice. Think back.
>>>What really could you have done different considering your emotional state,
>>>physical state and state of what was surrounding you.
>>>Do you think you really had a choice.I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Right on the money.——————-
@singing ocean
LOL, at your video. Hilarious.
OK, because of your “big question”, I’ll respond, but no more 🙂
>>>The big question is this:
>>>What is the “higher self” in your view?
>>>Is it personal or collective?
>>>Is it an extension of the five shen, manifesting their pure virtue qualities,
>>>but still in a personal configuration? Is it an unconscious part of ourselves
>>>that exists in formless dimensions but is unable to directly communicate
>>>with the personal self? I guess that would be the Ling, or the soul,
>>>that still maintains a personal aspect but functions in the formless.
>>>Or is it something else you are referring to?To be honest, the complete answer to that is still in the process of
discovery for me. It reveals parts of its nature to me when I
do “empty-mind” meditation, a yin practice I do designed to
counterbalance the Alchemical meditations with some downtime
to let the transformational stuff digest. In such meditations, when
going in deeply, it reveals parts of its nature when the mind is
turned off. The problem, of course, is that to analyze it carefully,
you have to engage the mind–which it hides from. I currently
have a functioning concept, but the details are only crystallizing
slowly a crumb at a time.So, in any event, I can only answer based on my current understanding.
I would say it would be something akin to the Ling, or more
appropriately, a higher vibration of it. It’s has the “your true self”,
“the core of who you are”, etc. qualities that bagua likes to refer to.The five shen assemble around the core axis here in the lower self, but
it’s not clear to me yet to what extent they extend up to the higher self.
My feeling is that they do not, but that instead there is some kind of
“unified shen presence” embuing the higher self with a kind of
“quasi-higher-vibrational personality”. It has a softer, *much* more subdued
quality; it doesn’t necessarily have the same feeling as that generated
by the five shen here in the lower self, but it is distinctly familiar nonetheless.“Oversoul” would be another term that is closely connected, but I’m
not certain yet how accurate that is either.IN GENERAL, I don’t like picking “terms”, as people have different definitions
for these things, depending on what their scholarly interpretation is–
and these definitions may not match the qualities that I’m observing,
so I’d rather just call it the “larger self” for the time being.>>>My view is that you are kind of missing the whole point.
Ummm, OK, but I’d say *you* were the one missing the point.
I know exactly where you are coming from, and thought the same
thing at one point. I just happen to completely disagree with it.A lot of it comes down to matter of opinion, and that’s why I
feel the discussion has become repetitive–a case of “Blue is
the best color.” “No, red is.” “No, blue is.”, etc.I sort of feel that I made my stance clear, and feel that if
someone resonates with my opinion that’s fine; if not, that’s
fine as well.You have to realize that much of what you are arguing is
purely *your* opinion also. For instance, you say:>>>Once we enter into the physical plane, we have free will
>>>and cannot be interfered with by the larger collective self.Where is that written?
That’s pure supposition and nice fairy tale to believe
that we are somehow on an island isolated from influence.As I said before, I believe that the free will we *think* we have is
nothing more than the already designed script by the larger
self conceived for the best interests of both. That does not
imply, as in that Buddhist quote you provided, that the
script means that therefore desire, thought, and action are
meaningless–the PROCESS of following the script *is* the point.
It’s like going to a gym, seeing people on treadmills and saying
to yourself, “I see that they are going nowhere, and besides
the machine is the one in control, so why participate?”
In this analogy, you are failing to see that the
participation IS the purpose.What difference does it make, “who” is ultimately making the
script? If it’s a good script, it doesn’t matter. And guess
what, thinking globally in terms of the evolution of your soul,
it is ALWAYS a good script. The details only seem significant
to the lower self, and are necessary for its growth. Speeding
the script along, especially during rough patches, is really
the only extra option . . .OK, and now I see I got suckered into arguing my viewpoint
one more time!! 🙂So rather than just volley back and forth with “No, red is the
best” “No blue is.”, etc. I’ll stop here, as I don’t
know that I have anything additional to add on to what
I’ve already said, and I don’t want to be a parrot, because
that’s not adding any value.In the meantime, why don’t you think about the question
that I asked you which you seem reluctant to face? See below.Smiles to you,
Steven————————————-
[Posted previously in “on being directed” response by Steven]
Why does it bother you so much that the lower self doesn’t
get the freedom to pick its own path?It’s not like the lower self gets *no* freedom. The lower self
can choose to complete the requests sooner by doing
alchemy and/or spiritual techniques to accelerate to the
next stage.Besides, the larger self that is making the choices IS “you”,
you just don’t realize it. This is the “eternal you” that
bagua hopes people will be able to identify with, so that
they can know “who they really are”.The point is not that we are “on an island isolated from influence”, but that we must choose between free will and submitting to absolute authority.
The info mainly came up in MW’s alchemy lectures, and through the Atlantean source.
The point in being here is to fill in a particular gap in the whole’s experience that expresses itself through us as a yearning…this process is complicated because of all the issues that arise in the material plane, and is not guaranteed to be completed which would be the case if everything was scripted for us.
The idea that “material things ultimately don’t matter” is better understood in the sense that once we leave the material plane, we continue on energetically, but the catch is that whatever we cultivate in the material is what we take with us in the energetic.
http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/1409%5C
“In certain esoteric schools this is known as the principle of “Ring Pass Not”: once consciousness has been created within a certain form, it has the right to continue existing. You’ve passed from the core inner ring of the Primordial into the outer ring of manifestation. The Whole cannot take away the right of that individual to continue existing and re-birthing itself if so designed.” – Michael Winn
“Adventures of God”, M. Morgan, P.121-2
This section describes the conflict among heavenly forces, that humans (which contain a fragment of the stellar mind) must choose between the right to free will and submitting to absolute rule by a spiritual hierarchy.
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