Creation and Dualism (article)

>>>Very nice explanation, very logical, very consistent.

Thank you. Knowing how much of an adept you are, I take
that as a high compliment. 🙂

>>>There appears to be certain judgments about life before
>>>and after human form, do they alter or influence our current life?

My opinion here is that, that is probably very likely.

As an example:
Radical muslim extremists who believe that committing acts of terror
in the name of Allah via suicide bombing will grant them immediate
entry into heaven will follow a much different path from atheists
who believe that a suicide will take them to oblivion vs. Roman
Catholics who would believe that regardless of the circumstances,
suicide is a one-way trip to hell.

This example demonstrates how the beliefs/judgements about life
after human form will directly influence our current life.

Do such beliefs also influence what does indeed happen after human form?
I guess that remains to be seen! Of course it should be clear
that exposure to a particular belief system will cause a person
to act in ways consistent with that belief system, and if indeed
that belief system matches reality, then such actions will move
the person toward a more “positive” result–whatever “positive” means.

I suppose ultimately each person has to let certain beliefs about
pre-human and post-human states float around in their psyches and
see which of them “feels right”, and then choose to resonate with
whichever ones do. Of course, there is an implicit amount of trust
being laid down here, in that we are expecting/hoping our deepest
level of intuition to not guide us astray into a false model. But
if we don’t make such a presumption or assumption, then there isn’t
much point in trying to do or believe in anything!! . . . because
in that case ultimately you’re going to end up screwed despite
your best efforts. Thus that avenue ends up being of interest
only to nihilists. And my feeling is that (pardon the pun) there
isn’t much point to nihilism. So you may as well trust the
universe that it will guide you to the truth if you are a sincere
seeker, and as such you should be able to trust your inner voice,
as that is a microcosm of the universe.

Once you “pick” a cosmological model of how things work, then even
if you keep an open mind and allow for the possibility that you
could be wrong and need to change your views, you can’t HELP but
be influenced in your current life by these beliefs.

>>>Does the Ling change with alchemy?

Here’s my OPINION:
Since the Ling exists in the prenatal, and the prenatal is also
subject to the Dao, and since part of the nature of the Dao is
change, then the Ling is subject to change like everything is.
However, since the Ling is a prenatal entity and not as influenced
by the ordinary ebb and flow of everyday postnatal life, that
it’s time rate of change flows on a completely different time
scale than our postnatal realm. In comparison to our postnatal
realm, I would say it is relatively static. Can the alchemy
we do in the postnatal affect the prenatal? Most definitely.
Since the Ling is in the prenatal, it is also subject to this
effect. However, I would say relatively speaking, it’s amount
of change is much smaller than the change on the XIN. The LING
is a much more static entity I would say.

In some ways, the LING is more closely related to the static
“core” part of you that doesn’t change . . . your essential nature,
your yuan shen. From this perspective, doing Zen meditation
or even doing alchemy is also about seeing through the changing
clouds of your XIN and getting a glimpse of the more stable
LING that is the skeletal part of “who you are”. Thus the
Zen practitioner who has a goal of truly understanding your
immortal true self beneath the clouds could be said to be
trying to see and identify with the LING that will endure on
in the hereafter REGARDLESS of whether or not the XIN evaporates
due to the scattering SHEN. This is one reason why I do
think this approach has merit also, as it is the LING+XIN that
comprise the individual, so getting intimate with “everybody” is a
good approach. Do you follow me? 😉

Hope you are smiling and enjoying life,
Steven

>>>I am very well my friend, a heat wave
>>>out here in the west, amazing, in the 80’s.

80s huh? You may be in for a rare “treat” come July/August!
(heavy sarcasm intended)

It’s in the lower 60’s here and sunny. Quite nice.
But considering I’m in MI, that puts it at “quite warm”
for this time of year as well. This is more like the weather of
late May/early June as opposed to mid-March.

>>>The heart of my question was if one
>>>believes the Ling is of a prenatal condition,
>>>as a skeleton of your current self, what influence
>>>does that have to a person now, to view life in this way?
>>>If one thinks parts of their current life
>>>will scatter and dissolve into the cosmos and
>>>mix with other things if they do not do some
>>>practice to integrate and hold their current condition
>>>in the afterlife how might that influence a person now?

How it influences the person depends on the person.

For some people, it could create a lot of fear–but then again,
this isn’t much different from the pattern of people in general . . .
going to church weekly and doing following ridiculous rules
because they are trying to get into heaven or trying to avoid
hell/oblivion/God’s wrath/what have you.

For others, maybe an atheistic type, it might provide hope
that they don’t need to end up in oblivion.

For others still, it might provide a strong source of motivation
to get the person to start seriously doing spiritual work.

It could influence the person in many different ways, again
depending on the person.

But if the outlined picture is TRUE, then any such effect is
irrelevant. The truth “ain’t” always pretty in life. Simply
choosing to discard things that cause uncomfortability doesn’t
make them go away. It’s like the kid who upon seeing his mother
prepare to tell him to do a chore and before she can do so,
he covers his eyes and says “Naa naa na naa naa, I can’t hear you.”
Guess what, the kid is still going to have to do the chore. The
only difference is the kid gets to live in Candy Land until
the hammer of the law comes down. You know what I mean?

>>>Putting aside method or technique, in my experience Chan (Zen)
>>>is about experiencing life from a different view than thoughts,
>>>take away our thoughts for a second or moment we still exist,
>>>but how do we see, smell, taste, view? This seemingly simple
>>>experience that is always with us, always available to us,
>>>inseparable from us appears to be quite difficult to be our
>>>everyday consciousness, but when we become aware of this
>>>aspect of our life we are freed from the “belief” we are
>>>fundamentally our thoughts or our emotions, they come and go
>>>and we know it and dont make them out to be more than they are.
>>>This “before thinking” aspect of ourselves does not contain
>>>prenatal or postnatal, it frees us from this thinking and
>>>allows is to experience and know Heaven/Earth are one here
>>>and now. It has always been my believe alchemy can lead to
>>>this and Chan is inside the Alchemy. Do you follow me?????

Yes I do.

I just think it is an incomplete picture.

Before thoughts, before emotions, there is a subtle awareness
and living aspect of us that is core immortal and does not depend on
thoughts and emotions for its existence–nor are such things
necessary. But that doesn’t mean we have to throw the baby
out with the bathwater; it doesn’t mean we can’t have our
cake and eat it too. A small toddler doesn’t have complex
emotional patterns and long histories of experience; a small
toddler doesn’t have a lot of intellectual thought, knowledge,
or baggage; a small toddler lives in the moment and is carefree,
joyful and not concerned with the future. I enjoyed that
part of my life, but I’m not interested in being that way again!
I LIKE the knowledge I’ve acquired; I LIKE the traumas I had
in my life–they were enriching and give me greater depth and
perception; I LIKE the memories I’ve had in my life. I LIKE
these things, and would like to keep them around. I don’t use
them to define me, but that doesn’t mean I think they are useless
either.

SEE HERE’S THE THING:

Zen argument argues you are already immortal, you just need
to recognize your essential nature and how it is completely
independent of the “fluff” we falsely identify as ourselves.

Alchemical Daoist argument (c.f. M. Winn) argues you are NOT,
and you need to integrate sufficiently through practices to
maintain your current condition lest you fizzle away at death.

MY POINT:

Why is it an EITHER/OR? Why can’t it be BOTH?
(Or am I the only one who has considered this 😛 )

My picture is that HALF of you is immortal and lives on;
it’s the other HALF–the XIN–that does not.

Under this picture, regardless of what happens, the
self-aware “child-like” part of you continues on, so there’s
no need for concern. If you manage to sufficiently
integrate to bring the XIN along as well, then KUDOS–even
better!! You win either way.

Why do I feel this is the correct picture? Ans: Because
ultimately it is the model that “feels right” to me.
To me, just alchemy alone or Zen alone each feels like
it is missing something. Together they feel complete.
To me, this is a strong support that my 50-50% picture is correct.

As an added bonus to adopting this picture:
If I’m right, I win.
If you are right, I STILL win.
If only the Alchemical Daoist approach is right, I EVEN STILL win.

Seems to me to be a better approach than
putting all your eggs in one basket, and picking a side ^_^
Don’t you think? 😉

Grinning ear-to-ear, and hoping you can take my jabs in stride 🙂
Steven

>>>My view was we realize we are not a thought,
>>>we are not a memory, we are not only our emotions,
>>>they are and will always be part of our life, but
>>>they are not the most important aspect of us, there
>>>is another aspect that many of us do not have a good
>>>relationship with, not allowing it to be our natural
>>>expression in life. Cultivation allows one to connect
>>>to this and live from this space. I think there are
>>>many ways to cultivate to access or attune to this aspect of our life.
>>>This aspect of our life is an approach to living life,
>>>its not a fixed thing. Its a way to live in a changing world.

I agree.

But assuming you live from this free and joyful space, why not
do other things that may cause more aspects connected with you
to continue along with you after physical death. Why limit
yourself to just your core essence? I mean, you are alive; you may
as well do something while you are here. Right? If you want
to just consider it child’s play, OK fine, I’ll accept that.
But I’m still going to play 😉

>>>Zen never mentions immortality, this dynamic is dual, not part of Chan.

Well, that depends on what you mean by Zen.
If you mean Zen as in Zen Buddhism, it sure does.
Buddhists believe in reincarnation and that the core part of you
continues from life to life even as you shed your memories, etc.
Moreover, I believe you personally expressed your belief in the
idea that we are already immortal, that we just haven’t realized it
yet (personal conversations, outside this particular discussion).
Now this may be a completely separate belief from whatever
you are calling Zen, and if that’s the case, OK fine. You can
give whatever name you like to whatever I called “Option A”, if you
want to keep that separate from the Zen concept. The name doesn’t
matter really, so long as you understand my cosmological view.

>>>Alchemical Daoist argument (c.f. M. Winn) argues you are NOT,
>>>and you need to integrate sufficiently through practices
>>>to maintain your current condition lest you fizzle away at death.
>>>****************************
>>>I don’t fully agree, they argue how you cultivate now
>>>influences what you become in the after life.

I was being overly brief.
Obviously your current condition is going to change drastically
when you die, and everything changes being subject to the Dao.
Please see my prior posts for the detailed model.

>>>For me there is not a win or loose dynamic,
>>>can we transcend this model?
>>>I am not personally interesting in winning,
>>>just living a natural life, whatever that brings I will deal with.

Come on. Don’t pick apart my language, bagua.
You know that wasn’t the intended meaning in those words.
I using metaphor to prove a point; don’t take it literally.
Otherwise, you are just building up a straw man argument.

My point when I said “you win” is along the lines of “it can’t hurt”.
You end up taking care of “Option A” and “Option B” simultaneously.
If anything, it’s being efficient, LOL.
I mean, there are plenty of hours in the day;
you’ve got time to do multiple things accounting for multiple
possibilities. That’s my point.

Thanks for the playful exchange,
Steven

HELLO bagua 🙂

>>>We are not finished quite yet.

LOL, OK 🙂 🙂
You’ve got me grinning ear to ear right now. Good job. 🙂

>>>But assuming you live from this free and joyful space,
>>>why not do other things that may cause more aspects
>>>connected with you to continue along with you after physical death. W
>>>**********************************
>>>I never said this is a free and joyful space. We live our life,
>>>sometimes love, sometimes anger, sometimes sad, the full range
>>>of experiences, what we dont do or minimize is make them out
>>>to be something they are not, when this occurs its called suffering.

It’s all perspective. I consider love, anger, sadness, etc. all
to be “joyful” in their own way. All such things are about experiencing
life, and as such they are great. How could they not be?
Really, it’s only when we allow such things to detract ourselves
from the enjoyment of the present moment that we run into problems.

>>>From my experience Zen is primarily about living your life
>>>in the here and now, not living life from past trauma,
>>>past socialization, past conditioning or future dreams,
>>>but in the here and now. I would offer Zen is not interested
>>>in forecasting future life, its about this life, this experience,
>>>we can play about those things, like a star trek movie
>>>or something, its fun.

I’ll agree with the word “primarily”.

But if this life is great fun, why not–while having fun–do things
that increase the likelihood of the fun to continue after physical
death? Can’t hurt, and possibly creates the continuance of more fun.
And there is no reason that such actions have to decrease the
fun being had in the present moment. In fact, I consider it to be
part of the fun that I’m *having* in the present moment.

Don’t begrudge me of my fun, LOL.

>>>I just feel it may not be necessary, depends on one’s experience.

May not be. You’re right.
But then again, it may. ^_^

>>>In general, when chatting with people about these things I offer
>>>my views, I am not trying to win a debate, and often there
>>>comes a time when I back off and allow others to unfold
>>>in there own way, as I appreciate that from others as well.

Exactly. Which is why I had put in a “subtle cue” I was
going to end the interchange, LOL.

In all seriousness, I think that through this thread and other
threads between you and I (or others including say Chris), it
has become pretty clear that such discussions will NOT end up
in a fashion of someone “winning a debate”. That’s not really
the point, and anyway I think the respective parties involved
are already pretty solid in their views.

I think it’s more about getting others to understand and
appreciate our views, even if a contrary belief is held.

Just my take . . .

Smiling when I’m saying this 🙂

Have a wonderful 80 degrees,
Steven

Hello Dog:

>>>I was hoping you guys where going to come up
>>>with a story you guys could agree on.

Sorry to have let you down 😉

I’m not *really* interested in convincing anyone;
just give another option to consider/digest
in each person’s search for the truth.
The truth will come of its own accord.

The discussion/debate for me is more about making sure I’ve
presented my model clearly and comprehensively . . .

But if you are looking for common ground we both agree on:

1. Have mutual respect for each others’ viewpoints.
2. Be open to possibilities
3. Do BOTH Alchemy and Zen for refinement ^_^

Also, c.f. Bagua’s comment:
“But maybe deep down I agree, because I do both”

>>>My worried mind
>>>needs more and more answers. Gimme Gimme Gimme!
>>>HAHAHA! I love the creativity.

The solution to this is to add Zen meditation practice to
your current alchemy practice. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Sorry, I have to tease you a bit, LOL ^_^

But in all seriousness, if you do this, then the resulting
awareness into the nature of self and life–which can not be
understood through deduction and thinking–will combine with your
natural intuition to give you the answers you seek. 😉

And on this, I think Bagua and I agree also. 😉

Smiles,
Steven