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MICHAEL: You still want be Mr. Nice Guy, even as you pass on a litany of speculative judgements about others while claiming not to. And you repeatedly pass yourself off as an authority, when you have NO CREDENTIALS established whatsoever other than your proclamations about your personal search.
The energy created from the Healing Dao practices are largely sensory in nature. Subjectively speaking, practitioners may experience all kinds of energy, colors and buzzing. Point of fact, you can experience any of these things by taking drugs.
First of all, let’s not generalize about ‘Healing Dao . You did not study any of the basics, fusion, healing love, or iron shirt with me – because I wasn’t teaching those at Big Indian. Like many students, perhaps you came into the Lesser unprepared and didn’t get it. Perhaps it appeared inconsistent to you because you didn’t have a previous five shen training consistent with my class.
ME: Okay, I have received a few emails asking for a response; fine: You have no Iron shirt Michael; Ron was very clear on this and often joked about it. No one in the Healing Dao that I have ever met, has ever been willing to demonstrate any abilities like what I have seen in China. Why? I even asked Chia to show me some qi and he refused, telling me I needed to work with the qi he was filling the room with? Ron said that, while you were perhaps on to something intellectually, you basically havent mastered the basics yet. Having said that, I will admit that you are very creative and youre theories are captivating. Does this mean anyone is going to develop their immortal fetus and achieve the ability to project their yang shen with these creative interpretations? No, a thousand times no.
Maybe Im just not sensitive enough, but I felt nothing during your seminars or Chias. Other people were having all kinds of qi awakening and experiencing enlightenment; who can argue with such things. If they got something out of it and felt there lives transformed, why should I argue. People were seeing spirits and out of body experiences. While these are neeto stuff, they are all quite subjective and impossible to verify. Is it perhaps possible that some of these individuals, under the placebo like effects of the group dynamic, said and did things to fuel there own desire to have these experiences? Ron thought so and he told me most of this stuff was just qigong theater. Why would he lie?
As for the Fusion that being taught, I was told by someone in the Healing Dao that I trust that these practices were taken from a book and largely a creation.
MICHAEL: Second of all, let’s not generalize YOUR experience of the first One Cloud formula onto others who have restored their health, found inner peace, and numerous other benefits. That formula is designed to harmonize post-natal chi. Your judgement is that no one is getting enlightened from it, when it is just designed to a be a foundation. It delivers to many what is promised – you simply wanted some thing different.
Me: Fair enough. Now it just a basic practice and no longer a powerful alchemical method. Hmmm… I seem to remember you mentioning enlightenment like it was some kind of side effect and no big deal, Really just subjective in nature.As for the miracle cures, people get cured of cancer by watching comedy shows on TV. Its called positive thinking. Im not an expert and I havent seen the evidence you are speaking of, but I do know that some of the examples you shared about healing that occurred from the practices were made up. One student who had recovered from full blown aids was very upset that you wrote about his recovery without permission, claiming it was due to all th Healing Dao practices. Turns out he says he wasnt practice the HT methods at the time and thought you were really overstepping your boundaries.
This is in line with what Ron told me on many occasions. He said that his practice was about helping people die a little more comfortably and with a sense that they were going on, to a new mystery. I do think Ron had some ability to guide peoples consciousness in subtle way, but he was very clear that the HT practices were not miracle cures.
ME: My experience with Healing Dao was my experience. All of the senior instructors I’ve met and studied under were still searching for more effective methods and were very open about this with me.
MICHAEL: Sounds exactly like David Shen and anyone interested in growing….a meaningless point. The other reality is that neidan requires deep long term commitment which not all healing Dao instructors were willing to put into it. Many of these instructors were exposed to David Shen, yet few chose to follow him.
ME: How is this a defense of the obvious fact that most the Healing Dao instructors I met told me point blank that they were still looking for high level practices and didnt feel the Healing Dao System represented anything more than the most basic practices. Many of them admitted to me that they didnt even practice most of the stuff. Ron said he just did Tai Chi and qigong. Renee, perhaps one of the few to achieve some skills, studied traditional Chinese tai chi and kungfu and said he never messed with any of the Healing Dao formulas beyond the basics.
ME: The idea that, because Kan and Li and the other formulas have been written about in various texts, proves they are authentic is just silly.
MICHAEL: The point is not to try to prove authenticity, which can only be established by each adept that develops the skill to make them work. The point was to demonstrate how fraudulent your claim was that Mantak Chia made them up. This is not character assassination of you, Sean – it is pointing out what you said is blatantly false and is a character assassination of Chia. The more these falsities accrue, your claimed expertise fades. I recommend in the future you stick to selling what works for you.
ME: this may be your view, but it most certainly is not mine. If Chia has mastered these formulas, why is he still searching? Why cant he demonstrate any kind of objective qigong skill? If he has access to a complete system, why do so many so close to him say differently? Any reasonable person would ask these questions.
The truth is, while Chia is still fumbling around in the darkroom with his night vision goggles, dozens of Davids students have achieved the ability to perceive the clear light in a few years of study.
ME: As you yourself told me, Chia was never actually trained in these methods; and what is taught today is basically a good guess at best.
MICHAEL: This is another blatantly false distortion, that let me know that either your ability to listen or your memory is weak, or both. What I said is exactly what I’ve clarified previously on this forum: Chia told me he was trained experientially up through the Greater Kan & Li, and given the description on the rest. He certainly had a connection to One Cloud’s lineage, and those beings were clearly pushing his work in the West.
ME: Despite your claim, which I really doubt based on Chias track record of borrowing from other systems and trying to pass it off as his own teaching, something tells be otherwise.
ME: David left the Healing Dao because you and Chia started teaching practices he taught you without permission; surprise.
MICHAEL: That is pure B.S. to include me in their struggle. David’s falling out was with Mantak Chia over numerous battles they had at Tao Garden, which led to his selling his condo there.
ME: way to back up your teacher. Im sure he appreciates your loyalty. Interestingly, Mantak was quite interested to know Davids techniques regarding the sexual practices. Apparently the ones Chia teaches were invented also.
ME: And after decades of practice Mantak himself has not achieved a meaningful level of achievement that would warrant the title of master in any line of the Dao that I know.
MICHAEL: Another judgement by Master Sean. One of many reasons why I avoid the Master Game. Chia has hundreds of grateful students that would judge otherwise. Even traditionally, master-student is a relationship, not an objective measurable quantity to be determined by others. A more correct statement would be to say, ‘Chia is not my master, based on what I need from a Master.
ME: actually my observation is based on common sense and very strong evidence from people I trust. A master in my book is someone who has mastered what they teach. Chia is not that by his own admissions.
MICHAEL: I have my differences with Chia, but his energy is certainly very powerful when he focuses it. If anything, he is victim of his ambition to use his power to grow something worthwhile too far too fast. That stretched him thin, and led to problems. His function in building the large community you profited handsomely from is a kind of mastery you will not commonly find in China or Thailand. There are many kinds of mastery. I am personally deeply grateful to Chia and have let go my anger at what I perceive were his mistakes. It is up to each of us to shape the reality we want to grow rather than getting stuck on other’s failures.
ME: well put. I not surprised you have moved on. Chia is just an average guy trying to make a buck and, if he helps a few people on the way, great. In China the word Master still means something. But many have lost the power to even dream about something so magical. Its sad really. I dont, as you have suggested, condemn people who arent interested in such things, after all life in magical enough with them if you can see past your own self centered pride.
ME: Perhaps there is something to the methods you teach, that’s just not my experience.
MICHAEL: Finally a possible admission that you haven’t really studied with me enough to make the earlier judgements you passed about being A money-making scam. .
ME: Not really; I was just trying to be nice.
MICHAEL: Maybe you would benefit from reading the testimonials posted before claiming to know more than the people who write them – benefits that feel just as real to them as the ones you claim to feel with a new teacher in Thailand.
ME: Ive read them and Im not going to comment on this any further because it is a basic difference of belief. Im sure that some are real, but how related they are to any practice beyond personal belief and positive thinking (both powerful forces admittedly) just cant be shown in any objective way.
MICHAEL: The assumptions I find most questionable and naive in your postings is beliff that David Shen is going to grant you immortality, and that no one in the Healing Tao has achieved it. That exhibiting some particular abilty with chi is the proof of immortality or even enlightenment, since we have nothing else as proof .
ME: David has nothing to do with it. Its the right technique and the methods to apply the technique passed down by those who have achieved and can demonstrate that achievement, plus my effort. These are things I seeing lacking grossly in the HT system
MICHAEL: What has possibly led you to believe that David Shen is immortal, or what would qualify you to make this judgement about him – or anyone else?
ME: Never said that. David, by his own admission is not a master yet, but he knows people who are and I have met them and experienced their power first hand. You have not.
MICHAEL: If David hasn’t achieved immortality after 20 years of hard searching, is that failure by your objective standards?
ME: Yep
MICHAEL: Your final judgement is to assume that I am criticizing you because my dvd empire is threatened . Empire here is of course another judgmental word. Did you really think this through?
ME: Yes, and Im not the only person who feels this way. There are many.
MICHAEL: Do you really think that I felt financially threatened by the prospect of David’s $6,500. basic retreat underming my mission to share with the public what I’ve learned from qigong and inner alchemy?
ME: Umm… Yes. But dont worry, I dont think most people read this forum who take your workshops. Anyway, the cost of Davids basic seminar in Denmark is comparable in cost to your workshops in New York. The Asia training is a condensed training that covers much more material (2-3 years worth) and the work that the master David will invite provides is an added bonus and helps people progress faster. Oh and one more thing, the teaching a real living transmission that hasnt changed in thousands of years and is the foundation of hundreds of living masters who can demonstrate there qi which is like sweet, raw electricity. This energy is one percent of what they can do and it feels like your holding on to one of those electric fences on the farm were I spent a few summers in my youth. It truly a miracle and people who have been doing this stuff for decades walk away transformed and humbled.
MICHAEL: Sean, there are plenty of family or closely held lineage, traditional teachers of various qi arts in China that will work only one on one with students.
ME: Yes, to bad you dont know any of them.
MICHAEL: Is this the future model of transmission likely to succeed in the West? There are enormous financial and cultural-linguistic hurdles to be overcome for westerners seeking that kind of relationship.
As these Chinese teachers take on more westerners, their model will be forced to shift to accommodate what is needed by their students. I think its great those opportunities exist for the few willing to pursue them. But its not the future of qigong and neidan in the West.
ME: Its the Westerners who will need to change in order to learn anything of value. The Chinese despise this attitude; its a big reason most dont let Westerners in there world.
MICHAEL: Enjoy your journey to living Without Judgement –
its a hard path, I’m still a neophyte myself :). MichaelME: Give me a break. We all make judgements everyday; its a part of life. The trick, as my Dzogchen teacher is fond of saying, is to distinguish between shit and medicine. If you feel you path is authentic and helpful, fine. I respect that, but dont try and paint me as some kind simple meddler who hasnt got a clue what hes doing. I have very good reasons for my opinions and I suspect Im not the only one.
As for the requests to, Just all get along. Thats fine, but a good debate is healthy too. Nothing wrong with it and I respect the fact that Michael has strong opinions; I just disagree with most of them.
Sincerely, Sean
Can you explain how achieving the raw electricity skill you are studying will bring you closer to immortality? What is your concept of immortality, is it physical or subtle-body or both? Is there a cosmology or explanation to the system you are learning?
I have experienced michaels transmission of yuan qi each time I take a retreat at dao mt. It was the same frequency I experienced when meditating at thousands year old Daoist mountain caves and sites in china.
Michael teaches a gradual path that takes commitment to receive the benefits; if you have not benefited, you may need to work through YOUR own issues that are holding you back. I have found great benefit from this practice on a physical, emotional and spiritual level, and take full responsibility for my own issues, both the ones that I still have, and the ones I have dissolved.
The electricity is the result of someone who has actually combined yin and yang qi. The outward ability is simply a result of a much more profound change in the body-mind of the practitioner. In the Lei Shan Dao when the “cords” that hold the Dantien are cut, the practioner has reached the first stage of immortality. If your really interested, the author of the book Entitled The Magus of Java wrote very clearly on the various stages of the practice and how they correspond to the various stories of immortality. He was appreticed to a living immortal named John Chang. Believe what you will. At this point, and actually even in the stage preceeding this one, reincarnation ceases. Immortality, the kind where one lives on in the material body, is rarer, but I personally believe the stories.
As to the transmission you received, I have experienced similar things with a few masters, one from India and one from Tibet. In each case, I felt incredible bliss and the sensation of energy. I trained in the master from India’s basic technique and after a few weeks was able to duplicate this bliss and energy on my own.
I trained in this technique for about one year and I believe this particular master does have some level of realisation because he under went 20 years of training as a monk and another 5 in tapas; tapas is 21 hours per day, every day, of meditation in the highest pitch of Samadhi. He told us that he went in to his meditation room with one commitment; either I come out a yogi or my dead body shall come out. It’s my belief at this point in my practice that, while perhaps if one dedicated himself to a technique like this under these conditions for that long they could achieve a genuine level of realisation or become a saint, most people don’t have this kind of opportunity to practice.
I also believe that with any basic meditation technique, if you practice long enough and hard enough you will experience all the various sensations of bliss, light and energy. But in the end these really don’t amount to anything because they are defined and limited set of sensory perceptions. They are the first step in a much broader range of actual results.
One thing that attracts me to these masters in China is that they can objectively measure your progress by touching you and using their qi to see how far you have progressed. They can tell the exact state of your Dantien and whether you’ve done any practice or not. Actually, to open your Dantein for real, meaning you break the first two cords and achieve what’s commonly refered to as stage two or level two, you have to be extremly careful to control strong emotions.
If for example, you touch a person in anger, your qi will go straight to their heart, following the path of least resistence and destroy the tissue there. This is why the Tibetan Buddhists go through so much trouble to teach Dharma and non-violence before they teach students the higher level Vajra practices. Some Tibetan lineages still teach up to stage two. Also the Chinese military trains their solders to this level, but it’s really a very basic achievement in comparrison to the Lei shan dao masters in China that I met. In fact, the author of the Magus of Java achieved level two; at one point he almost killed a few of his students on accident. His hands and other energy points have marks on them where his qi issued from his body. Interestingly, Tibetan practitioners who complete the Vajra practice known as Phowa have these same markings on their body often times.
As to my issues, frankly raising a child has helped me resolve more of those than Michael or the practices he teaches ever could. Now that’s real alchemy.
Best, Sean
Sean,
You are very invested in John Chang and that particular tradition. And now you’ve invested big money and time in David. That’s fine. It’s one approach to alchemy and they use one kind of method for measuring it. You don’t have to use that method to block reincarnation. To think so is, from my view, extremely narrow minded, and you are making it hard on yourself and others who follow you and John Chang. Plus it seems to have made you prone to judging everyone who doesn’t adhere to your beliefs about this method as a fake.“The Tao has 3600 paths, and each path has 10,000. methods” – vice abbott of huashan.
As Chris notes below, I am interested in opening dimensional portals, and am not interested in developing electric chi. I don’t need it for my purposes. There are many methods for stabilizing and then neutralizing the yin-yang deep core channels (or ida-pingala cords in Indian tradition).
I am of course familiar with the electric chi ability – and think it is really useful for healing at the jing level.
If someone wants to study elecric chi, you don’t need to pay David $7500. (plus room, board, and airfare I presume). Its a hefty price David is charging at the doorway to get to Master Luo, who I am sure is a cool dude, as I know another student of his (my mistake to mix him with Lao. I am speaking of the Sifu Luo with two wives, one Thai and the other Chinese).
For $450. tuition you can study with Robert Peng, whose speciality is electric chi. He is a great guy, humble, heals lots of folks with heavy illnesses lke cancer, and will be teaching next July at Dao Mtn. You can read his website, robertpeng.com. Robert is from China, but speaks perfect English. A big plus when choosing a teacher.
Robert had this gift from childhood, but developed it further under a serious training with a buddhist teacher. It culminated with a 30 day darkroom retreat in which his master stuck two foot long needles in through the crown of his head, took him through the pre-natal portal (false death), and then taught him – guess what? Lesser kan and li, almost exactly same process as HT teaches.
So if someone has doubts about spending their life savings on David to find out about electric chi, I suggest they try Robert first. I’ve tested him, he has it – tangible shock, followed by strong current. Again, its one kind of healing.
I am again baffled why you think quoting Ron about meditation means anything. Ron was a body worker, and he had great earth chi from his standing practice. His meditation was to use it for healing, that is how he refined it. Ron never practiced kan and li, like many healers they find it easier to “meditate” on their patients than on their own chi field. I discussed this with him many times – the risk of not refining the raw earth chi in standing practice. But it just wasn’t his path. So no need to twist people choices of practice into judgements about them.
You’ve made the same judgements about other instructors – everyone chooses to cultivate what they feel most drawn to. Few of them practiced kan and li to get deep enough iinside its mechanism.
and chia was too busy with too many things to practice it – as I also told him many times. So I stopped complaining about others and fixed the problem myself. With a lot of help from inner plane teachers.So Sean, I am looking forward to testing your electric chi ability in a few years. Let me know when you’re ready.
🙂
Michael…I am still waiting for him to offer his iron body course. His chi is indeed like an electric current, which I should know as I have been electrocuted before.
Michael,
I have never claimed that this is the only method used to move passed the reincarnation process and I have never condemned “Everyone else as a fake.” As I have said there are many other valid spiritual paths that work in different ways. The only thing I’m claiming is that the HT methods are flawed. You are entitled to your opinions, but I still feel what David’s offering is an incredible opportunity; primarily because he has so many successful students. As to the cost, I know many people in the healing tao who have spent 10,000 and up on various workshops; in my opinion many of them haven’t achieved what David is offering. I think the price is actually quite reasonable and I have seen offers much higher that don’t include two to three years of training and the opportunity to meet a master like the ones David knows.
Actually the training of John Chang’s lineage was offered to all students free of charge. Many students achieved the first and second stage, but no one in thirty years can do what John Chang can do or produce the yin yang gong electricity. This is the case with the few high level masters who teach publicly. Some can’t teach because they lack the ability and some don’t because they want to keep it to themselves.
Yes, I’m aware of James’ connection with Luo. He’s not offering what David is. If he was, he would be charging a similar price for his time and commitment. Some of David’s students have even been accepted by Luo as students and are progressing beyond the second stage as I have described. David knows and has a similar relationship with 9 or 10 masters like Luo; some can train students to Robert Pengs level in a few years. It would be wonderful if these practices became more available and at a lower cost, but at this time in history these kinds of opportunities are not openly taught, as you seem to suggest. To suggest otherwise is misleading.
Even if Robert Ping has achieved yin yang gong, not out of the realm of possibility, I would need to know how many students he is able to teach this skill to. Sounds like he was born with some ability; this often happens when you’ve achieved in previous lives- If Robert is genuine, this is likely the case. I will look into it and thank you for sharing; hopefully this isn’t just another dead end for people. I’d be curious to know if he is teaching what he was taught and taking students into the “false death” state you speak of. I would imagine, if he can teach this, that it would require sacrifices of one’s time, energy and financial assets that are similar to what every other teacher out there requires of close students.
As for his Kan and Li, it seems like he had more than a little training in some serious foundation. Even if the basic outline of the Kan & Li practice taught in the HT is correct, that doesn’t mean the methods to apply it or the underlying principles are understood. For example, the famous translation of Taoist Yoga by Charles Luk is a real method that works quite well, but the underlying principles and true meaning of these teachings are never written. They are passed down from teacher to student along with the methods and principles that aren’t explained in the book, but are necessary to actually apply the techniques.
There are lot’s of great healers in the States; Ze’ev Coleman, a Jewish healer in NY, has similar abilities to the Yin Yang Gong Masters in China, but he has no idea how to teach it by his own admission.
I’m not judging Ron and I find your subtle implication that he became ill due to his practice insulting. He was exposed to asbestos and I’m sorry, but this has nothing to do with how his earth qi was refined or the lack of. I trust Ron and the other instructors I spent time with and I think they had valid concerns. I find the idea that your inner planes teachers are filling you in on the missing Kan and Li info a little questionable. After all, anyone can claim that they have invisible teachers; I know dozens of people that claim to have spirit guides who guide them and tell them the future. I’m not saying they are all fakes, but I certainly question their claims. Interestingly David, showed us pictures of his, so called invisible teachers- a least these offer some kind of evidence; and of course his current teachers are alive and well; I met them personally.
David is a pioneer in his field. I simply wanted to share my views and let people know about what he’s teaching. It’s easy to cut me down and chip away at my credibility from the comfort of your easy chair; after all I don’t have a book, website or a marketing strategy.
As for your offer to test my abilities, it’s on baby.
Best, Sean
I would also like to briefly add that according to John Chang, who is a wise teacher, the process of reincarnation is quite real and very natural; really nothing to be overly concerned about. The most important things in life are friends, family and respecting your heart and hearts of others. I have chosen a lifestyle of cultivation like many of you and my interests go beyond the norm; please don’t interprete my sharing about David’s teaching as some kind of condisending attack on the people in the Healing Dao because they don’t believe in following the “One true path.” If my posts have made anyone feel insulted, I’m sorry, please know you have my respect. Michael has been spinning the same tales since I met him in 98 and while it’s true that we have our differences, my intention here is only to share an opportunity along with my own personal views. If your not interested that is completely fine with me, if you are great.
I realize that the Healing Dao is comprised of a greater body of knowledge than what Michael alone offers. People like Renee and Juan Li are good teachers and have helped a lot of people emotionally and physically. I think some of the ideas presented are helpful and a stepping stone to something more for those interested who want to go beyond the HT methods in their personal practice.
Peace, Sean
Thank you for sharing the information about Robert Peng. I had never heard about him. He looks to be a very fine teacher. I am sure people will enjoy his workshop.
My question is do you know how many of his students have achieved the same ability for example being able to project the electricity?I studied with David at the retreat in Thailand in August and met Sifu L which was quite an experience. One thing I learned from David is that not many of the Sifus with the Yin Yang Gong ability, who accept western students, actually teach them so that they can achieve the same ability, which happens when they reach what we call Level 4, where they are able join the Yin and Yang in the Dantien. For example Sifu “John Chang”, although teaching for several years, none of his students have reached Level 4. Sifu L who we met in Thailand, has not to this date accepted any students to become disciples to learn this Yin Yang Gong ability. David told us that when Sifu J offered to teach him he wanted to know how many students he had taught who had areached Level 4. Sifu J told him 30 and David asked to if he could meet some of them. Sifu J then brought a couple of his disciples to meet with David and they were able to exhibit the same ability which goes with Level 4, like the electricity, starting fires from a distance, etc. David then decided to study with Sifu J and was in August made a family disciple with Sifu J.
So my point is that when you decide to study with a Master you need to find out how many of his students have achieved the same ability. Not that you can’t learn from them, but if you seriously want to follow a certain path you need to know what Masters students have accomplished.
Sean,
I appreciate the shift in tone and attitude in your final posts – very different from your initial letters, which I felt were tyring to elevate your case for a pricy workshop by dumping on others in the HT. Totally unnecessary and unproductive, and hopefully the exchange has gotten you clearer about how to more effectively communicate.I welcome open sharing of experiences from all teachers and traditions relevant to peoples cultivation. I also welcome honest, detailed, constructive criticism based on one’s own experience – that can be useful feedback for all involved. Criticism can be made without making blanket judgements.
My view is that Tao is about process, and that process will take many different forms at different time cycles and for different people. The life force is here to help us complete our destiny, and each of us has a unique destiny.
There is a real danger of dis-empowering others by making higher truth claims for oneself and one’s teachers/lineage.
Higher power is not higher love nor wisdom, and greater power may not bring higher completion if not handled wisely. Look at the experience of John Chang’s student in greece, whose practice theatened his life. There are real risks involved, an argument for proceeding gradually and assessing them at each stage of the process. That kind of assessment is difficult when there is a huge upfront price tag. I am not suggesting it is the case here, but I know of many other cases where people have felt unable to change their path/community because they had committed all their resources to it and it seemed easier to stay rather than move on.
As a footnote, I believe I have corrected the potential dangers I discovered in some of the initial teachings of the HT and vastly improved their depth and efficacy. At least that is MY experience of them 🙂 and not sure what else is worth sharing. And I will trust Inner Guidance any day over Other Guidance. I prefer to make my own mistakes, not others.
peace,
MichaelSince Sean Denty quoted Sean Omlor (Tao Bums webmaster) to suggest his possible support,
I thought it might be useful to all to read Sean’s final take on this discussion, which I think is quite eloquent.His thinking is in alignment with my own, thta ultimately which we bring our personal truth/destiny into alignment with the Life Force in each moment, that is the first and thus most important level of immortality.
yours in Truth,
Michael
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