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Thanks Max,
We had a nice post too about internal martial arts and 9 bottle breathing. I forgot to complement you on that. Thanks!
Fajin
Hi fajin:
Im assuming your teacher is Hu? Wonderful man. I have done his form for a few years, and have seen almost the same form from a few others from the Shao Lin lineage.
It is my experience that when I discuss Taoist Alchemy with people, we tend to agree on the end realization, but not the in betweens.
I thnk Michael has made some fabulous contributions to the Taoist communinty and alchemy, but I dont agree with everything.
Can you clarify something. Can you define what the 7-Po souls are, and what the 3-Hun souls are?
I dont think the personality dies, for the enlighted, one does not attach to it or gain their existence from it.
I did not say transforming is deceiving, I said the meaning of transforming can be deceiving. I think in alchemy, transforming is not shaping things into what you want them to be, it is attuning to what already exists, allowing nature to manifest without resistance and without trying to form things. As the Chan say, see things as they are, no more, no less. I call this transformation, your stomach and spleen transform food and drink without your Ego’s involement.
Fusion is a wonderful practice. I have seen the same type in many forms. M. Chia is a very detailed person, so his methods or formulas are detailed. I find highly intellectual people tend to gravitate with complex methods, and I beleive this method of alchemy, that we are talking about that is of that type. the model and language does not bring clarity, but causes ambiguity, if you questions things and do not blindy accept things.
In a sense, M. Chia’s inner-smile, healing sounds, orbit, fusion, kan and li are all complex, detailed, intellectual methods, if it works for you great; but there are other simplier ways to do this alchemy, and they are as valid.
Lao Zi, Chaung Zi, and all the enlighetned Taoists did not express this kind of detail, their speech was different, but profound and mostly very clear.
I hope this detailed model guides you in your quest, for me it is an interesting and stimulating model, but can be to intellectual and a blockage. “Dont Know Mind” is the enligthened mind, its that simple. Empty Mind/Wu Wei with Taoist cultivation for health and vitality is the best IMHO.
regards,
bagua
Bagua,
It was very interesting to hear your comments. My teacher was not Hu, Yhuan. When I came to Wudang I already developed a rather “hard” body from my shaolin and tibetan lama gongfu so I came to learn what being soft was about and I learned Sanfeng Taijiquan. I was not interested in learning more about hardness as Hu, Yhuan was noted for when I came there.
I see that my view is different than yours and so I will state my view for you to absorb and perhaps gain something new out of it. It has been a long discussion so I would like to finish it, unless you have something to reply, go ahead. Discussing Daoist alchemy with you was good, I will now post my reply.
The 7 Po souls and 3 Hun souls are already defined. They are spirits recycled from Heaven and Earth when the body is reincarnated. If your questions are more detailed on them, I suggest you get a good book on them and perhaps read Michael’s articles if you have not yet done that.
Through your intent and values, and the medium of senses, you have duplicated a visible representation of your inner desire. It was through intent, that you have created yourself. Thought creates reality. Every thought, desire and belief you hold form a vortex of intention, as you continually create yourself. Your came back into this body with a new personality with the intent to free the original self. Your team of cellective spirits are also in your body waiting to be unified. However, this unification can be overwhelmed by the ego. You must change your ego (personality) through the power of intent.
Your representation of transformation is incomplete because you say that nature should take its course in the transformation process. As, when you transform jing, it will be qi, manifest by nature alone, only through intent do you want to transform, but nature transforms it into what it will become. This is limited. You are abdicating your own power of intent, to create physical reality in this physicality. Your original self, through intent, got you to where you are now, but now it is up to your personal intent which will either allow unification or forfeit to allow nature to do things while you merely observe. If through intent you are here and now, and you have became fragmented, you must use intent to get back to your original self. Intent (yi) shapes your personality (ego) in your inner desire to manifest the outcome – reunification of heaven and man. It is through intent (yi-spleen) and proper use of mind will (zhi-kindeys) and ego (personality-heart) that the 7 Po and 3 Hun will be unified with yuan shen. This is my perception of the permanent inner reality in this physicality.
I read your comments on the simplicity of Taoism and the over-intellect of Mantak Chia, but I will leave no comment on this as this is your perception of it. Your view too, is made by the power of intent and can grow and change. Letting go and observing while nature takes its course is not enough, you must shape things into what you want physical reality to become. Don’t limit yourself, as you yourself are an unlimited being. Good luck on your personal journey!
Fajin
Hi Fajin:
Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated.
Hu is a very gentle person, so if you are saying he is from the “hard” school we are talking about a different person. DaMo QI Gong is about as soft and gentle as one is going to get, in my view.
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“The 7 Po souls and 3 Hun souls are already defined. They are spirits recycled from Heaven and Earth when the body is reincarnated. If your questions are more detailed on them, I suggest you get a good book on them and perhaps read Michael’s articles if you have not yet done that. ”
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It is always interesting to me that when people want to give detailed analsysis they do, but when they dont know more info they just say go somewhere else to find it. There are no books that give detailed desriptions on the 7 po and 3 hun, if you know of books let me know. If we say five shen, this matches five elements, five yin organs, five directions. So if anybody knows details to these numbers and what they are, please pass on (beyond the numerology of the Luo Shu). I know of only two theories that give some reasonable details, but they include buddhist view too.I have known michael for twenty years, so its not necessary to refer me to him.
Through your intent and values, and the medium of senses, you have duplicated a visible representation of your inner desire. It was through intent, that you have created yourself. Thought creates reality. Every thought, desire and belief you hold form a vortex of intention, as you continually create yourself. Your came back into this body with a new personality with the intent to free the original self. Your team of cellective spirits are also in your body waiting to be unified. However, this unification can be overwhelmed by the ego. You must change your ego (personality) through the power of intent.
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I just think alot of what you are saying is Buddhist/Hindu, not Taoist. Can you refer me to Taoist texts that share this view? You are talking about buddhist views within taoist theory. Can you refer to pre-buddhist taoists that say “we coma back into this body with a new personality”, I would be very grateful.Your representation of transformation is incomplete because you say that nature should take its course in the transformation process. As, when you transform jing, it will be qi, manifest by nature alone, only through intent do you want to transform, but nature transforms it into what it will become. This is limited. You are abdicating your own power of intent, to create physical reality in this physicality.
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We are nature, all we need to do is relax, find the neutral force/space/wu wei and attune to what exists. Jing transforms to QI and Shen on its own, this is nature’s/our own natural process, any book on chinese medicine presents this. The whole steaming process found in Kan and Li is the most basic process, Jing being cooked by Ming Men Fire/Yang, creating Kidney Qi/Yuan-SOurce QI, all we are doing is bringing our mind to this area to enhance the process or connect to it, we are not creating something that does not already exist.I read your comments on the simplicity of Taoism and the over-intellect of Mantak Chia, but I will leave no comment on this as this is your perception of it. Your view too, is made by the power of intent and can grow and change. Letting go and observing while nature takes its course is not enough, you must shape things into what you want physical reality to become. Don’t limit yourself, as you yourself are an unlimited being. Good luck on your personal journey!
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Michael made a post about 50% of what people post is not understood.
My comment on M. Chia was the method he has presentated has lots of steps, and can be complicated, he can inegrate it but others may not so easily.
The alchemical formulas you study are very detailed, step by step, very intellectual, lots of Yi proccess; it may or may not me right for you, my point was there are other ways of teaching alchemy that is less detailed, less intellectual, less thinking mind. Lao Zi is a great example.
***********************************************Intention is imporant, but what is this intention based on? What understanding is guiding it, it is the natural process of life, the “Tao”, the way?. It is my experience it is always with you, right there, so attune your Yi to it, this is alchemical intention in my view. How is your intention to know what to create? Ultimately we must attune to something in our cultivation, the Sun, Moon, Earth, stars, these all are reflections of nature, this is the nature I refer too. It is always with us and when you meditate and find unity you experience it.
I propose Alchemy is about letting nature shape your intention, or your Yi should go with the intention of nature. Hopefully the alchemical formulas guide us in this process.
Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
There are many schools in Wudang, my school was at the foot of Mt. Wudang. It is headed by the Wudang Taoist Kung Fu Association (WTKFA) and so there could be many Hu’s. That’s not very important. What is, is your reply.
Yes, I know little about Po and Hun, I was only trying to answer your question. No sign of disrespect intended.
I don’t understand how you can possibly say that creating through the power of intent as an expression of free will is a buddhist/hinduist view and it does not have to be written in any texts to say that we created ourselves through intent, and through intent we transform our current personality and integrate with our original self. I did not read many Daoist texts, except Tao Te Ching, I Ching, and the Taiji Classics. My wisdom comes from direct experience and from interacting with many other Daoists at Wudang.
Another thing is about Mantak Chia that I only said I would not reply about your comments because there has been a previous discussion about him and I don’t want to comment on your perception of him. Nothing more.
Bagua, do I somehow bother your belief system. Do you think that we have created ourselves, or that some higher power did that? Are we not that higher power? You are who you are because of intent. Through YOUR OWN INTENT you are here, not through the Dao. We must seek re-unification with the Dao through OUR intent once again, that is the point of inner alchemy. We are individuals with free will and intent (yi) backed by our will (zhi), we can achieve re-unification once again. Intent was and always will be, it is our nature to shape things through our free will, not the reverse (nature shape our intent). To me, Daoism is about following the ways of the universe so that we may function freely as we intend to do, and re-unify ourselves with the Dao once again. I invite others to take part in this discussion and share their views on this. Otherwise, I don’t know why you practice inner alchemy. I invite others to take part in this discussion and share their views on this.
You still have yet to answer Michael’s question, I too await your interesting answer.
Fajin
Michael’s question is in the topic, Round 2: Taoism vs. Chan. Read it and you’ll see.
All the Best, Fajin!
hi fajin:
the post is long with many things in it.
One. Michael is not an acheived Chan/Zen Buddhists, as far as I know he does not have Inka or dharma transmision from a Zen Master, and as far as I know he does not claim this, not does he claim to have attained taoist immortality, id he has let me know.
Most of his comments are about one persons view on taoist alchemy, of which I have desire to to get involved. And most is his attempt to correct the person for his view of what tao alchemy is and is not.
For me, the realization in Chan/Zen is the same as Taoist Immortality, and I have had enough enlightned people confirm this with me.
Its been fun. My INTENTION is just to engage in dialogue so we can all learn from each other, hope it is accepted that way.
smiling in the tao,
bagua
One typo (im sure there are more)
It shoudl be NO desire
Most of his comments are about one persons view on taoist alchemy, of which I have “NO” desire to to get involved. And most is his attempt to correct the person for his view of what tao alchemy is and is not.
Thank you Bagua,
It’s been fun discussing with you. I certainly accept what you have said. Our views may not go together but I do agree that we learn from each other.
Take Care, Fajin
WOOPS, Sorry, I read the wrong post, one on Nan’s opinions, so ignore my early post
but we should based Chan realization on what some are doing in china or someone one met, they may or may not reflect what it represents, like some so called tao masters, that live lives and do things not from a highly refined view.
I will give my feedback later on the post, there is much there and I need to go do some work.
bagua
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