- This topic has 4 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 9 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
You appear to speak english quite well, is it just because I will not agree with your point of view that you dropped out of the discussion?
By language I mean belief system. We discussed the texts and had a difference in the way we understand them. Since I know that and you know that why do you think we need to do it over and over again?
To my memory, each time we started talking about emptiness meditation (and buddhism), you refused to elaborate on the subject of whether the spiritual realms from your point of view are dynamic or absolute (frozen), and what exactly is in that ultimate state of emptiness anyway?
Nothing is frosen or absolute, even your ideas about your practice. They constantly flow and evolve, constantly changing. I have absolutely no experience with ‘the ultimate state of emptiness’ and so how can I answer this question? Even if I did, there is no way describe it, just like describing sweet taste. And so your other questions can’t be answered as well related to it.
And what the heck is semblance dharma anyway, something that resembles real dharma but is fake?
All the sensations created by 5 elements within and without fall under it. Since they are always changing, we can’t really grasp them. They come and go, and hold on to them like they are real is holding on to the illusion.
Am I making it clear?FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW “there is no difference between “pure” daoism and buddhism”, thanks for attempting to take away my free will to experience what I choose to do by making decisions for me in a condescending manner and telling me what my point of view should be (“apparently you see there is. It will pass”).
It will also pass.
We have been unable to discuss exactly what “pure daoism and buddhism” is so far, so when you are ready to explain your point of view I will listen.
The best description I can give is if you follow a pure form of Taoism, you merge with a free flowing Life Force/Tao and all your actions will be the outcome of that flow. The question is ‘how do you learn to be in this state?’. By observing the life force within. By doing that you see REALITY – the processes what are happening in your body and mind at the moment. So may say it’s not enough and you need to visualize the process that is proven to uplift you and help you grow spiritually at a much faster rate. And so, the followers go on and do visualization of this formulas and they get results. After practicing for many years, they become wiser because of all the internal work they have done. And they see clearly they have to let go of the processes they were taught. For years they relied on the concepts of ‘what is supposed to be’ as opposed to ‘what is’.
Using your free will on the life force within you is not pure Taoism. Using these methods will certainly give you powers and great results. But that’s as much as you can get. It’s building your spiritual foundation based on the illusiory sensations. And that’s why I noticed many people move away from Internal Alchemy or add other stillness practices after they reach a certain stage (unless they become instructors).
Max,
I thnk you will be very hard pressed to define either pure taoism or pure buddhism. I know that the professional scholars cannot agree on it, and the practitioners cannot agree on it. History is never neat, and these terms like “pure taoism” are conceptual terms imposed on the amorphous flow of history.The claim is basically a judgement – that everything except what I do/teach is “impure”.
it’s a dead end – and belongs in the tawdry category of “my lineage is the best”, better get on my path.As for your comments that the five elements are illusory, you fall into the same trap of conceptualism – you’ve equated the terms “illusory” and “changing” as being identical. The 5 phases/elements ARE the taoist theory of change, of the cycles of the life force. To call it illusory means that you are saying the theory is not correct, that there are NOT real cycles of change that we can harmonize the illusion of our self with.
Again, a really tough sell – try telling that to a farmer who has been observing nature and planting his crops based on those cycles. Taoist alchemy is based on nature as an unfolding process, not on human projection reinventing nature – but on deepening our awareness of it unfolding it within the body.
What theory of change do you have to replace the five phase theory? I’d love to hear a better one – that can improve on the theory that strangely has shown up in nearly every traditional culture on the planet…
One point of “stillness” practices is to get clear so you can observe those yin-yang and five phase processes of change flowing within your subtle bodies.
If you could tell me of a single person who was able to stop the flow of yin-yang or 5 phase movements of the lifeforce by stilling their body or their mind or their soul, I’d be really interested to hear whether the sun failed to rise or if the earth stopped turning on that day. If they didn’t, what is the meaning of “stillness”?
michael
The claim is basically a judgement – that everything except what I do/teach is “impure”.
it’s a dead end – and belongs in the tawdry category of “my lineage is the best”, better get on my path.
Sure, anything we say is a personal judgement. And the idea of being is the best or the most integrated is not my invention on this forum.As for your comments that the five elements are illusory, you fall into the same trap of conceptualism – you’ve equated the terms “illusory” and “changing” as being identical. The 5 phases/elements ARE the taoist theory of change, of the cycles of the life force. To call it illusory means that you are saying the theory is not correct, that there are NOT real cycles of change that we can harmonize the illusion of our self with.
I see your point. Illusion is a strong word. I would describe it as ‘impermenance’.Taoist alchemy is based on nature as an unfolding process, not on human projection reinventing nature – but on deepening our awareness of it unfolding it within the body.
I agree. The question is “What do you do to deepen your awareness without binding yourself into a mental prison of what ‘is supposed to be’?”What theory of change do you have to replace the five phase theory? I’d love to hear a better one – that can improve on the theory that strangely has shown up in nearly every traditional culture on the planet…
I have nothing to replace it with. Buddhists have a simular theory with 4 energies. But does it mean you have to get it under your control within your energy feild?
Buddha also was telling his students to harmonise 4 energies. But he tought them only ‘observational’ methods, not imposing your free will.One point of “stillness” practices is to get clear so you can observe those yin-yang and five phase processes of change flowing within your subtle bodies.
You are right on the target.If you could tell me of a single person who was able to stop the flow of yin-yang or 5 phase movements of the lifeforce by stilling their body or their mind or their soul
Sure, a dead one.If they didn’t, what is the meaning of “stillness”
“to get clear so you can observe those yin-yang and five phase processes of change flowing within your subtle bodies”.>If you could tell me of a single person who was able to stop the flow of yin-yang or 5 phase movements of the lifeforce by stilling their body or their mind or their soul
>Sure, a dead one.
That’s cute, max. Are you relying on past memories here?
That consciousness, as it shifts from form to formless/death, suddenly goes blank and stops changing? What causes the formless to manifest again, if the laws of change have ceased functioning? (Rhetorical, no answer required as I know you agree with me…:)I think we agree that there is a big problem caused by language used loosely, such as “illusory”.
Impermanent is much better from my point of view, and would reflect the taoist notion that all is processual, whether in form or formless.This poor use of language has been my main opposition to Buddhist teachings. If your language is misleading, the intention applied to actual practices causes investments energetically that may not return fruits. Certainly I totally support Buddhist meditation methods of self-observation.
But your language here (or notion that the self is illusory-impermanent) may prevent you from seeing that choosing to observe self/situation IS AN ACT OF FREE WILL.
So by choosing that observatory position repeatedly in practice, you are telling the Life Force, this is how I want my level of free will defined in the difficult place that life places me in as a human.
That’s fine. I am simply saying that I value a greater degree of free will – the ability to shape what i observe.
michael
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.