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Hello Bagua,
I do like how you say that there is no one best method because everyone is different. It should be based on CHOICE of doing what you want with the life force as Michael says shaping it to what you want it to become. It’s just like five elements nutrition, everyone has a different body and certain foods will be beneficial and certain others will not. It is my guess though, that Daoism allows this freedom for the person. Of course, you may use other methods from other paths.
About shooting the pearl, I understand what you mean by the whale thing, good example. Just one thing, if Michael doesn’t take the pearl out of the body at all, then why do you need grounding because I thought grounding was necessary for the ascension of the immortal child/pearl out of the head?
Fajin
HI faj:
I think its safe to assume most people learning this work are scattered and not grounded from an alchemical point of view, so they need to cultivate this. Most of our lives we are everywhere, except inside and in the NOW. Once this is develeped, one can go anywhere.
I dont think acsension is rising up literally, it occurs internally, the tan tien is the portal to enternal nature, not to say things wont happen travelling to alot of places, but most masters of the past say those things are not the goal, one can spend lots of time playing out there and miss the point.
bagua
Bagua,
I see that you are speaking of this as something that requires Chan, about living in and acting out of your personal space as grounded, but that is again where we disagree because I think that Daoist and Chan take two different paths to reach the same goal. You see them as intertwining with each other like ida and pingala, while I see them as using different models to get there of which to me, the Daoist model is more effective, but we won’t argue because we each share our views, this is my opinion.
I do however, think that you can use Chan practices or yogic practices or whatever other practices as long as it supports the model that you follow, which is jing to qi to shen to wu, which is why I say that I am not limited to following what is a Daoist practice. As long as it follows that model, which I THINK is the most efficient route to the destination.
The groudedness that you first told me was akin to what is developed in martial qigong, like zhan zhuang. So from this description I would assume that it’s about drawing a stronger connection to the earth with the lower dantian and as Mantak Chia says, that it is like a support tower that boosts a rocket into space. Since you say that you can move the pearl out of your head gently, then grounding is emphasized but to a smaller degree as with shooting it out.
I was asking about wether Michael REQUIRES this lower dantian to earth connection (I mean a stronger connection because I know that we are connected to everything) for his practices because he doesn’t take the pearl out through the top of the head.
Thank you,
FajinFaj:
You can ask Michael about it.
I dont give alot of value to shooting out, so no need to continue the dialogue on it. In my view Taoist cultivation is gentle, slow, and has many methods, look at what a formula or method does, look behind the words and metaphors, and above all, practice, practice, practice.
bagua
Greetings Bagua,
I have to say that I find your use of language and position not very clear; one moment you are saying that Winn’s method is to draw the external (celestial) energies inside the body, and the next that the in the view of “Most masters of the past”, the Dan tien is the portal to the internal nature as I originally stated above. Do those “Most masters” include Chan buddhists who have adopted daoist techniques of grounding through focusing on the lower dan tien, or are you referring to your concept of Lao Zi’s method of “being one”?
On the subject of “Once you are grounded you can go anywhere”, do you mean harmonizing the shen with the post natal, pre natal and primordial frequencies or are you working in the post natal realm only? These are important distinctions, especially when one makes the claim that they can reach a state of being “all one”, is it really encompassing all of these levels? And, on that subject, does a person instantly reach this state of being all one or is it a gradual process using formulas?
To clarify my point, what I meant is that through the (method of M.Winn’s) process of alchemical refining and cultivation and opening the Kan and Li neutral space, one is more able to harmonize with the PRENATAL virtue qualities of the vital organ shen, sun, moon, stars etc. This is not the same as astral travel outside the physical body up into the physical heavens to collect POST NATAL qi which has a very raw and unrefined quality to it. In the pre natal realm (“early Heaven”), physical distance is not an issue, one can connect directly to the consciousness, intelligence and shen of the celestial beings (planets, stars) without having to go “out there” or go far away to find it, one goes inside to connect directly with the shen.
Even when practicing sungazing, one is not connecting directly to the raw post natal qi of the sun but to its inner frequencies, its inner neutral portal into the formless. One may be seemingly ingesting postnatal sun energy, and that is also a part of it, but I think that is also a way that people in the past have injured themselves through this practice, that they were unaware of the level of frequency to connect to.
Hello Singing Ocean,
That was a beautiful speech. I would like to ask you something if you don’t mind because Bagua was unable to answer this. From what I know, grounding is rooting your lower dantian to earth as in martial qigong. Why is this necessary in Michael’s version of the alchemical formulas? I know Chia emphasizes this because he says that the body serves the pearl as a control tower serves a rocket ship.
If, in Michael’s formulas there is no need to take the pearl outside the body, due to prenatal qi in the formlessness of the body, then why does one need to be strongly rooted to earth? Or, does being grounded have some different meaning, something to do with the organ shen?
Thanks for your time, very much appreciated!
Fajin
Just to clarify, I think that I understand what Michael is trying to say. The Daoist path favours going internal to external which his pearl method does so. Eg. Microcosmic orbit fills 2 vessels and then go EXTERNALLY to the 12 other meridians in arms and legs. Or, embryonic breathing being another example of internal to external as opposed to breath retention.
There are many other examples, but this pearl in the dantian, which is a portal to attract higher dimensional energies is using prenatal qi to grow the immortal child and then the child will spontaneously seek postnatal qi from the planets, stars, etc., which is internal to external or yin to yang. Prenatal qi to postnatal qi. Michael is a genius to figure this out. Many, many thanks to Michael for figuring this out.
Greetings Fajin,
I think we are running into terminology problems (“grounding”, “internal to external” and what exactly those denote and in what context).
The importance of the earth element is that the chinese daoist cosmology is one of the only in world traditional cultures that places the earth in the center of the elements as opposed to air or ether. In terms of cultivation this means that earth represents stability and trust on the level of consciousness/spirit/virtue, and a stable foundation for all the other elemental phases of consciousness.
The importance of “grounding” is not what you might think of in a martial sense (I also practice martial arts) although martial artists use this rooting into the earth. The earth element first occurs as the center or stable ground in your own being, and then you connect and amplify your own earth element with the consciousness of the planetary earth being, and then move on from there in higher kan and li practices to other planetary and stellar levels of stability/trust/earth consciousness.
Grounding in the sense of cultivation refers more to developing your own center and stable sense of free will so that you are not pulled out of it by other more powerful centers in other levels of consicousness.
The purpose of going internal is not to go further external, it is to go as deep as you can go. The process never ends, yet you are always connecting those deep levels to your physical level, and eventually your center of consciousness shifts from the physical deeper into the formless frequencies while still maintaining lucid awareness of all levels.
Hello Singing Ocean,
This clarifies everything, thank you for everything about grounding, I understand what it is all about now.
But I think that you misunderstood me with internal to external. I didn’t mean that the purpose of going internal was to go external, of course you penetrate deeper internally and as a result, your results will manifest stronger outwardly or externally.
Like in taiji, the more you connect your skeleton to the earth and move with the bones, the more the muscles relax and become “cotton-like.” Or, the more the immortal child/pearl is fed by the dimensional energies/early heaven, the more it matures and more it is ready to go out externally to draw cosmic frequencies. I believe we are in agreement on this.
Just another thing, is grounding developed through the fusion practice in preparation for kan and li? Because I think that Michael has mentioned something about grounding in fusion 2/3, I believe. Just wondering if you can clarify this.
Fajin
one way:
compare covers of Cosmic healing 1 and 2 for way of progressionway two:
compare Yudelove way of collection point cultivation (his book) and Dirk’s way of cultivation of collection points (Cosmic healing 2)Hi Singing Ocean:
Your writing style is very similar to another on this list.
Ocean:
I have to say that I find your use of language and position not very clear; one moment you are saying that Winn’s method is to draw the external (celestial) energies inside the body, and the next that the in the view of “Most masters of the past”, the Dan tien is the portal to the internal nature as I originally stated above. Do those “Most masters” include Chan buddhists who have adopted daoist techniques of grounding through focusing on the lower dan tien, or are you referring to your concept of Lao Zi’s method of “being one”?
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Your isolation of ideas, methods and realizations are too linear, all these occur at once, simultaneous. Early Heaven, Later Heaven all exist NOW.Outside energy, inside energy all exist NOW. Because you go to the center does not mean you do not gather external Qi, it may allow for more external Qi to enter as one relaxes and creates a more efficient way to gather and collect.
Dao Cosmology is not linear, all aspects exist NOW, so the potential each moment is one can realize this NOW, not after having to go their a linear progression of formulas, which may or may not work.
OC
On the subject of “Once you are grounded you can go anywhere”, do you mean harmonizing the shen with the post natal, pre natal and primordial frequencies or are you working in the post natal realm only? These are important distinctions, especially when one makes the claim that they can reach a state of being “all one”, is it really encompassing all of these levels? And, on that subject, does a person instantly reach this state of being all one or is it a gradual process using formulas?
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There is no such thing a Post Natal realm only, this is theoritical talk, Taoist dont split life like this, this “Post Natal Realm” only does not exist.Looking at Dao Cosmology, its clear Wu Qi exists within every level to the myriad things, so each person can realize this.
Conditioning, EGO, intellect and the combo of all these prevvent realizing what already exists. Its gradual in the sense one does not realize this and does some practice that may bring it at some time, there is no guarantee the formulas do what they say, their effectiveness as far as success rate within over 20-years practicing in western world is not proven. I have people using these methods and going to highest practice and are so unbalanced and so stuck, the formulas have not worked and please dont blame the victim.
OC
To clarify my point, what I meant is that through the (method of M.Winn’s) process of alchemical refining and cultivation and opening the Kan and Li neutral space, one is more able to harmonize with the PRENATAL virtue qualities of the vital organ shen, sun, moon, stars etc. This is not the same as astral travel outside the physical body up into the physical heavens to collect POST NATAL qi which has a very raw and unrefined quality to it. In the pre natal realm (“early Heaven”), physical distance is not an issue, one can connect directly to the consciousness, intelligence and shen of the celestial beings (planets, stars) without having to go “out there” or go far away to find it, one goes inside to connect directly with the shen.
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Humans are part of the whole, humans are the offspring of Wu Ji but in an inseparable energy field, this is what Dao Cosmology tells us, if one realized this they know each Moment all are one and one is all, this is so simple, some taoists make it so complex, its a complex mind trying to solve it.OC
Even when practicing sungazing, one is not connecting directly to the raw post natal qi of the sun but to its inner frequencies, its inner neutral portal into the formless. One may be seemingly ingesting postnatal sun energy, and that is also a part of it, but I think that is also a way that people in the past have injured themselves through this practice, that they were unaware of the level of frequency to connect to.
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The sun will influence you whether you want it or not. Sit out in the sun and its energy influences you, we are inseparable, it will mix with what exists and mutliple it.nice chatting.
bagua
Hi Faj:
In general I will not give the specific technique a teacher presents, go buy their product. You say you learned Chia’s formulas, but your questions show its doubtful. You say your ordered Michael’s fusion, why not wait and find out yourself?
bagua
Bagua,
I did not practice Chia’s formulas, only his inner smile and have read a few of his books like iron shirt chi kung and tan tien chi kung. I learned many of the things on Wudangshan like orbit and six healing sounds and others. I did not order Michael’s fusion yet and did not say I have, I WILL SOON order his fundamentals 1 and 2 but about formulas, it seems I will practice Winn’s. Please do not make quick assumptions before understanding everything. Thank you.
Fajin
Bagua,
I did not practice Chia’s formulas, only his inner smile and have read a few of his books like iron shirt chi kung and tan tien chi kung. I learned many of the things on Wudangshan like orbit and six healing sounds and others. I did not order Michael’s fusion yet and did not say I have, I WILL SOON order his fundamentals 1 and 2 but about formulas, it seems I will practice Winn’s. Please do not make quick assumptions before understanding everything. Thank you.
Fajin
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