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Hi Fajin:
I dont know why Wu Ji expresses itself and I dont think anybody knows.
Consciousness does not create the universe and its functioning, it is a way to realize what is going on. It seems to me taoists and alchemists are about looking at what is going on and attuining to its patterns. We do not create the patterns or energetics. Life is being created all the time, we have the freedom to attune to different things. If you want to say attuning causes a shift or change from one state of consciousness or awareness to another, is creating something new, ok.
bagua
Bagua,
Let me begin that Lao Tsu says in chapter 1.
“The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.”I am not saying something beyond human understanding, Bagua. I try to follow the advice of the Tao Te Ching like you. This is how I see life as a process of relating because you are constantly relating the nature of Dao to yourself. Dao is “supreme mystery” not Wu Ji, as Michael says. Dao cannot be told.
Wu Ji is the mother of ten thousand things because that was the primal womb for the 10,000 just as your mother’s womb is the primal source to you. After you got out of your mother’s womb, YOU THEN HAD FREE WILL! You evolved into a self-sustained unit of jing, qi, and shen. It was the intent of Dao to manifest itself on all levels through the Wu Ji.
Concsiousness then gave rise to that which came from the Wu Ji, ie. it tranformed the potentiality of it and created a possibile reality much like you create the reality of this world because each one of your concsious actions has an impact.
Bagua, you can say attune or transform or create. But, when something goes from formless to form, it is creation. Creation is formless to form. Concsiousness creates from the formless potential, into a reality. Relate Lao Tsu’s chapter 1 and you will understand the whole picture!
Love is the most powerful vibration, so smiles from the heart to you, David!
FajinHello fajin:
Faj
“The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.”
********************I think this confirms what I have been saying, Wu Ji and the reason for Tao is beyond our comprehension, I hope you agree.
Fajin
Wu Ji is the mother of ten thousand things because that was the primal womb for the 10,000 just as your mother’s womb is the primal source to you. After you got out of your mother’s womb, YOU THEN HAD FREE WILL! You evolved into a self-sustained unit of jing, qi, and shen. It was the intent of Dao to manifest itself on all levels through the Wu Ji.
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I think your statements can be easily misunderstood. We have a level of choice, we are influenced by the jing/parents influence/genetics, family/society conditioning, the air we breath, the people in our life, etc.You like to use the word free will, I hope you can present the range of things that are included in your idea of free will. Why does a Tao master have to take a plane ride from country to country, why not use free will to shift change to energy form and then travel that way and manifest in physical again.
You would do a gret service to explain what free will means in our life.
Fajin
Concsiousness then gave rise to that which came from the Wu Ji, ie. it tranformed the potentiality of it and created a possibile reality much like you create the reality of this world because each one of your concsious actions has an impact.
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Something created conscousness and something allows it a range to function in, know this something and your true nature is revealed.Fajin
Bagua, you can say attune or transform or create. But, when something goes from formless to form, it is creation. Creation is formless to form. Concsiousness creates from the formless potential, into a reality. Relate Lao Tsu’s chapter 1 and you will understand the whole picture!
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Consciousness is the offsring of that which created it, it is not separate from it. Look at the ancient tai ji diagram, blank circle in the center with rings of dark and light on the outer part, Yin-YAng, , this is saying within all the forms and patterns of life the Wu Ji is there. Wu Ji is the matrix of the entire world, form and formless, this is what we seek to realize and live from.If you want to say the process of getting from a regular life to the alchemical realization (which really is our natural life) is shaping life force or creating immortal body, i agree.
I hope the Love Vibration permeates your center channel and you live in the bliss our Wu Ji. I hope you write your posts from that Loving Space too, you have much to offer.
Dancing in the Tao,
bagua
Bagua,
All right, here we go again. There was a beginning to this discussion, and so it will have an end, do you know when it will end? The choice is yours. All you have to do is agree with a smile, like me smiling through my loving heart as I type these lovely words to you, my friend.
>>You like to use the word free will, I hope you can present the range of things that are included in your idea of free will. Why does a Tao master have to take a plane ride from country to country, why not use free will to shift change to energy form and then travel that way and manifest in physical again.
You would do a gret service to explain what free will means in our life.<< *Lu Dong Bin was said to teleport. If we want to SHAPE the life force to teleport specifically, we can do that too. No plane needed. We just need the knowledge of HOW to do it. Then practice. Chan does not allow that level of freedom. >>Something created conscousness and something allows it a range to function in, know this something and your true nature is revealed.<< *If there is a range, we are limited. I see we are limitless if we created ourselves. This is true freedom, to have no boundaries, the highest evolution. >>Consciousness is the offsring of that which created it, it is not separate from it.<< *Are you separate from your mother, or are you inseparable from your mother? What about when your mother dies, do you die as well? Wu Ji is the mother of 10,000 things, and you are now separate of it, not Dao. We must abide to Dao, because everything else leads to suffering. You have free will because the Wu Ji does not control us as a puppet. Chan Buddhists allow Wu Ji to take over as a puppetmaster controls a puppet with strings, it was their use of free will. I came out of my mother when I was 9 months old and now I will not go back into her, I won't fit anyways. Besides, I now control my life, not her. Hope that rings a big bell this time, Fajin
Hi Fajin:
Oh you do make me smile.
fajin
Are you separate from your mother, or are you inseparable from your mother? What about when your mother dies, do you die as well? Wu Ji is the mother of 10,000 things, and you are now separate of it, not Dao. We must abide to Dao, because everything else leads to suffering. You have free will because the Wu Ji does not control us as a puppet. Chan Buddhists allow Wu Ji to take over as a puppetmaster controls a puppet with strings, it was their use of free will. I came out of my mother when I was 9 months old and now I will not go back into her, I won’t fit anyways. Besides, I now control my life, not her.
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You are restrited to a physical body, you need air to live, you need food to live, you must shit or you will be sick, suffer and die, and on and on, how much freedom to you have?I do not know if Lu Dong Bin existed, or if the legends what they say are true, Chinese history is full of stories, dont take them all as truth, just like adam and eve.
Nice chatting,
bagua
Hi Bagua,
You make me smile to, even as I click your post. Haha!
>>You are restrited to a physical body, you need air to live, you need food to live, you must shit or you will be sick, suffer and die, and on and on, how much freedom to you have?<>I do not know if Lu Dong Bin existed, or if the legends what they say are true, Chinese history is full of stories, dont take them all as truth, just like adam and eve.<<
*As a matter of fact, I do know because I am in progress of possessing two of the 8 major siddhis (look at yoga) in the near future through my martial arts practice.
Thank you,
FajinMax,
I see. You were referring to when I said Chan does not allow that level of freedom.
So are you saying Chan allows that level of freedom, to be able to teleport anywhere you want on Earth? What do you base this assertion on? Personally, I can’t see how reciting koans will be able to allow one to do this.
Fajin
Hi Max,
I know that Chan does not attempt to develop powers, and same with the Dao path. You misinterpret alot of what I say. I just said that through Chan practice, one cannot develop any siddhis. I don’t see how it does that? Can you name one Chan master who had any superpowers from his Chan practice?
It doesn’t allow for that level of freedom because it just doesn’t SHAPE the life force to do what you want it to do. You live in this world and you must adapt to it. Through shaping the life force, you can excel in sex, eating, transportation, emotions, strength, anything. To me, this is the core of following the Dao. But in the case of alchemy, it shoots for immortality.
Fajin
Hi Max,
I know that Chan does not attempt to develop powers, and same with the Dao path. You misinterpret alot of what I say. I just said that through Chan practice, one cannot develop any siddhis. I don’t see how it does that? Can you name one Chan master who had any superpowers from his Chan practice?
It doesn’t allow for that level of freedom because it just doesn’t SHAPE the life force to do what you want it to do. You live in this world and you must adapt to it. Through shaping the life force, you can excel in sex, eating, transportation, emotions, strength, anything. To me, this is the core of following the Dao. But in the case of alchemy, it shoots for immortality.
Fajin
Max,
Nan Huai Chin does not practice solely Chan, not a good example. No need for examples. I know Chan is historically a monastic path and so it may be that there were some Chan Buddhists that have developed powers. I do agree that Chan does have an effect on qi and therefore powers may develop. I only meant that with Chan, you cannot specifically develop any powers because it doesn’t allow that type of freedom to manifest what you specifically want.
Daoists have worked on many parts of life including feng shui, martial arts, TCM, astrology, etc. This is many Chan Buddhists went to monasticism so they only needed the basic responsibilities of eating, drinking, and Chan. I’m not trying to slam Chan if that’s the way you see it, I’m only trying to say the way things are. Chan Buddhism is historically monastic and does not SHAPE the life force, which I think is a greater level of freedom.
Again, I’m not saying that it does not WORK with the life force, and it MAY develop spontaneous powers, but not the same way that SHAPING the life force does. You probably agree with Wendy and Bagua that I am arrogant and hot-headed. If that is it, then don’t discuss with me anymore because why would you want to discuss with me, such an arrogant, narrow minded, person.
Thank you and Metta to you, smiles from the heart to you Max,
FajinHello Fajin:
Many taoists converted to buddhism, many use both.
“Powers” have nothing to do with spiritual enlightment, many have qi powers but are so unbalanced, special powers do not guarantee spiritual development or achievement. Long life due to qi gong, nei gong, etc. does not guarantee spiritual enlightment.
Chan allows Dao to shape and unfold destiny naturally, your “will” to began and stay on the path is the shaping and the usuage of free will.
The long history of taoism contains many sexual abuses/vampires, deaths due to external alchemy, it seems in the later tang thru song dynasties tao alchemy was refined, and much was influenced by buddhist understanding.
The Chinese not only kept these secrets from westerns, but from their own people, I guess they did not trust their own.
Alchemists were hermits, lived in isolation in the mountains, this is an equivalent of manalistic life, lets be honest about this discussion. Are you living in the mountains or practicing and living with people, the true test of spiritual realization.
Feeling my love?
ba gua
Bagua,
You made some pretty solid points this time that I will have to agree with, but let me say my part.
About powers, I don’t mean to necessarily develop powers that would help with spirituality, but to help adapt with life. For example, you were telling me how much freedom do we have, we have to take a plane, eat, sleep, drink, etc. I was only stating that we can develop or shape, whatever, our qi to become self-sufficient on ourselves and allow us to be able to do pretty much anything. This is what I meant about powers.
You speak about Chan experience, not all the schools and lineages, and dogmas, etc. I do the same with the Dao path. I say life is a process of relating because to me, OK, to me, a Daoist is one who is relating the nature of Dao, to human nature. We are one with Dao and must abide to Dao and its laws.
The Daoists who went to caves did that because they were close to cultivating golden elixer for the golden light body, this is what my teacher told me on Wudangshan and if you go to Mantak’s website you can read about Darkness Technology. Personally, if I do spontaneously discover, somehow, the 7th formula in One Cloud’s suprastructure, I will also go to a mountain cave and cultivate myself there until I succeed.
External alhemy does not reflect the nature of Dao, the nature of Dao is to go from internal to external like I said. Again, I am only interested in following Dao, not necessarily limiting myself to schools that didn’t follow Dao to the utmost in the past. Like Damo qigong, it is a Daoist path, but it follows Buddhist teachings of Boddhidarma or Da Mo, there was exchange between Buddhists and Daoists. I am only interested in following Dao to the utmost.
Also, I agree that Daoists have kept their secrets from their own people too, but Westerners are worse with it, especially looking at how many Westerners have injured themselves from books and others ways due to their extreme yang.
The vibrations of love are immense, what a heart you have Bagua, can you feel my smile penetrating throught the armored turtle shell, going deep, deep, into that innermost core of your heart?
Fajin
For not sharing the same view as Wendy about me. I thought Nan-Huai Chin wrote a book about Daoism? I won’t argue with you about Chan, I will stop if bothers you.
Smiles away,
Fajin
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