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Hi Michael Winn,
I am practicing Mantak Chia’s System since 1997. I attended two times his Winter Retreat in 1998 and 1999, from Basic to Sealing of the Five senses. But since a long time I practice only the basics. I still like it very much. Now I have several question about Mantak Chia’s Teaching in general:
I scanned Lu Dongbin’s “Lingbao Bifa” and Qiu Chuji’s “Dadan Zhizhi”, none of these neidan manuscripts of Quanzhen or Longmen School are similar to One Cloud’s Seven Formulas, also no other texts I scanned explains, how to open the twelve channels like in Lesser Kan & Li or even the Inner Smile. Even scanning the index of the Daozhang (or a search in Google) for Xiao Kan Li, Da Kan Li or Tai kan Li will bring no results. Have you ever find similar systems at Huashan, Maoshan or elsewhere, and if how similar are they?
I am also very interested in the original Chinese Version of the Seven Formulas handed down from One Cloud to Master Chia. It must be existing in written form, otherwise how can be made a system out of it. This would be a real structure of One Clouds Seven Formula. Do you have access to it, I would like to have a copy of it, haha? Was it really necessary to add the basics practices into the formulas to expand it to nine formulas, or just marketing strategy. I personally still prefer the old version and the old structure, was very clear with no comsic… and no supreme… .
There seems to be a secrecy about the 6th formula Congress of Heaven and Man, and I really do not understand why. I asked Mantak Chia via Email about a booklet, but he said he has no booklet written yet, because he has not attained this high level. This is definitely not true, because he already taught you, and he was taught by One Cloud himself, so where is the last formula in booklet form? I think Sealing of the Five Senses is already a very high internal alchemy formula and it is free available in booklet form. So why not offer the sixth formula in a booklet to completing the whole practice for references too? Seems none of the Universal Tao practitioner have attained breatherian state so far, so why is Sealing of the Five Sense already available? The inner alchemy texts of Lu Dongbin’s, Qiu Chuji’s and others, although not very detailed at all, indeed teach a ninth or last formula, so please why such secrecy.
Regarding the Fusion, I agree with you, the change Master Chia did, especially the chanting of the trigrams in the new Fusion and Dial Fusion, it feels not right to me. I stick to his old videos with the old version, because I do not like the all cosmic approach and chanting. By the way, I read your comment, that projecting the pearl outward in the end of the Fusion is like loosing the essence to the universe and it is dangerous, even though in the practice the pearl and energy body are reabsorbed again. You stated in a forum he took it from a Tibetan system. So there is even no pearl outward projection in the higher Kan & Li practices? But expanding the awareness to the universe while retain conscious about the dantian is still save, right? In his Greater Kan & Li booklet there are two practices called “Forming the energy and Spirit Body” and “Astral/Vertical Flight”, do they belong to the original Kan & Li, and do you think the are save to practice in your opinion?
Iron Shirt: I read in a block, that the Qi Packing exercise is dangerous. Do you recommend Qi packing and the energizing and reverse breathing? Because to pack the Qi pressure to the Kidney actually feels good to me, so I am curious about the comment in the forum. In his retreat in France 2010 (see Youtube), Mantak Chia even further simplifies the Iron Shirt practices in this way: Only 36 time energize and 36 times reverse breathing, no special packing. Than just stand in the posture, no connecting to the earth energy, just standing and breathing. Feels less technical, and easier.
For Taijiquan, I like the Zheng Manqing Style, regardless of the critics about this simplified form. Although I miss the grabbing and chocking techniques, which are good explained in the video “Taiji Chin Na” of Yang Jwing-Ming. I never was attracted to Master Chia’s Taijiquan, I do not know if his style and his practice are good or not, just seems not my cup of tea.
I have read that if one has a good Taijiquan teacher, and if practiced diligently, than the breath normally becomes deep abdominal and also expands to the back, so does this mean than there will be no need for Iron Shirt, or what do you think? I think Mantak Chia emphasizes packing the breath into the kidney due to the fact, that Qi pressure massages the kidney and frees it from sediments. Otherwise after people getting 40 years 30 percent of the kidney is already death and full of toxic. I wonder why Iron Shirt was incorporated into Mantak Chias system if good Taijiquan has similar massaging effect on the kidneys, because it sounds more Shaolin than Daoist to me? Any comments to this?There is so many warning about his Sexual Gongfu. Just want to know why it is said the practice Mantak Chia is teaching is dangerous. I balance the upward draw with daily Inner Smile and Microcosmic Orbit, so I do not have any headache or side effects after practicing it. I still also agree to some complaints, that his Multi Orgasmic books are not good at all. I still stick to his old workshop videos and his first two books about the topic. By the way no one complains and warnings are posted about the thousand years old Fangzhongshu manuscript. They describe the semen retention (Huanjing Bunao) even less detailed. Regarding the healing love I would also highly appreciate to have all the Chinese terms, so a Chinese book of Mantak Chia’s teaching would be very nice. Finally I want to ask, do you recommend the testicle massage? Because if I do this, after several weeks a feel a little bit congested in the prostate. Even outer massaging the perineum and anus does not really help. So finally the semen will leak out as premature ejaculation. I stopped doing this, I do only the upward draw every morning, while having sex with a female or when I am suddenly aroused in public.
Final question, why some people complain that Mantak Chia has stolen books from different Master and republished them under is own name. How does this rumor came from, is their a truth behind this? Additionally some people say his teaching are dangerous and should not be published by books. That is nonsense, the Daozhang is full of neidan texts, written very scurrilous. No one blames the old Masters for publishing them. So I do not understand the complaints against Mantak Chia for doing so. I am very happy Mantak Chia shared his inner alchemy, basic practice and healing love to the world, and I don’t care if its origin is come from oral transmission or from stolen manuscripts. So I take what I like from his teaching, and ignore what I do not like.
I am in China Shenzhen now, any suggestions where to go for real Daoist experience. I also want to chat with a real Daoist Master from Huashan or elsewhere. Any place or person you do recommend to go?
Thanks, and best regards,
FabioFabio,
I appreciate the depth and intelligence behind your many questions. But it would take a whole book to answer them all, and I am busy writing another book right now.You can contact one of my students in shenzhen, Carl. carljosephdemarco@gmail.com
He knows my system and has been living in china for a long time.Fundamentally, you want me to answer or correct many things about Mantak Chia’s system. I stopped doing that long ago, too much work. Instead I focused on developing the higher formulas. So I’ve taught over 100 week long kan and li level retreats now, and pushed the understanding much deeper than what mantak taught me. I also have help from Atlantean and Tao immortal guides.
So the heaven and earth alchemy retreat I teach is not from him. My system diverges beginning with Greater Kan Li, where you cannot really couple the sun & moon unless you open up the earth cauldron first.(fyi, Mantak buys all my Kan Li courses and has been borrowing from them for years, I am happy to say).
You are trying to practice from booklets, but this is weak approach. Neidan needs transmission.
I suggest you listen to my lesser or greater kan and li homestudy. If you don’t think it is adding something new, then return it for full refund.
There are many systems of xiao kan li I’ve run across in China, but you are correct, they are not in dan zhang. A few have parts of sun-moon alchemy.
My goal has been to integrate a clear path so that what is learned in Fundamentals is carried all the way through to highest formula. I resisted to change from 7 to 9 for many years, but finally I made agreement with Mantak to do this, conditional upon my keeping MY arrangement in the expansion of the first formula into three formulas. In this I require much more preparation (Fusion) before people learn sexual gongfu, that way there is no danger.
I recently taught Mantak the Wudang Orbit, and you will soon see his versions of that being adopted as “official”. But already he has made it too complicated, his chronic problem – that is why I did not share it with him sooner, I wanted it well established in its original form first. I suggest you learn that as well, in my Medical and Spiritual Qigong Fundamentals 2 level. It will revolutionize everything that comes after it, it has allowed me to make all the formulas more powerful in their ability to reach the jing.
You are like most westerners, you want all the information up front. But in neidan, information is not King. That is just mental body. Skill with subtle bodies is King, and that develops progressively.
Most of your practice sounds like focused on post-natal Qi, which can only go so far.
Hope this helps,
MichaelHello Fabio:
I would like to offer my view on some of these things.
I am also very interested in the original Chinese Version of the Seven Formulas handed down from One Cloud to Master Chia. It must be existing in written form, otherwise how can be made a system out of it. This would be a real structure of One Clouds Seven Formula. Do you have access to it, I would like to have a copy of it, haha? Was it really necessary to add the basics practices into the formulas to expand it to nine formulas, or just marketing strategy. I personally still prefer the old version and the old structure, was very clear with no comsic… and no supreme… .
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It was a verbal transmission. From my understanding, he it put on paper, a rough outline. As he continued to study and learn about all aspects of the tao, cosmology, etc. he filled it out. His students offered their understanding of these topics too.There seems to be a secrecy about the 6th formula Congress of Heaven and Man, and I really do not understand why. I asked Mantak Chia via Email about a booklet, but he said he has no booklet written yet, because he has not attained this high level. This is definitely not true, because he already taught you, and he was taught by One Cloud himself, so where is the last formula in booklet form?
******************
He did not teach him. It shows how you and others assume things.Regarding the Fusion, I agree with you, the change Master Chia did, especially the chanting of the trigrams in the new Fusion and Dial Fusion, it feels not right to me. I stick to his old videos with the old version, because I do not like the all cosmic approach and chanting.
************
I dont think you find rigid, black and white teaching for decades. People try to find better ways to teach and share the experience. New ways to explain things. I think this has gone too far. I think the early teachings had less theory, less fantastic things, more about refining and cultivation, and that leads to insights. Too much intellectual reliance now in my opinion.By the way, I read your comment, that projecting the pearl outward in the end of the Fusion is like loosing the essence to the universe and it is dangerous, even though in the practice the pearl and energy body are reabsorbed again. You stated in a forum he took it from a Tibetan system. So there is even no pearl outward projection in the higher Kan & Li practices? But expanding the awareness to the universe while retain conscious about the dantian is still save, right? In his Greater Kan & Li booklet there are two practices called “Forming the energy and Spirit Body” and “Astral/Vertical Flight”, do they belong to the original Kan & Li, and do you think the are save to practice in your opinion?
******************
I agree its similar. Timing is important. Is one ready for it. Cooking requires good timing.Iron Shirt: I read in a block, that the Qi Packing exercise is dangerous. Do you recommend Qi packing and the energizing and reverse breathing? Because to pack the Qi pressure to the Kidney actually feels good to me, so I am curious about the comment in the forum. In his retreat in France 2010 (see Youtube), Mantak Chia even further simplifies the Iron Shirt practices in this way: Only 36 time energize and 36 times reverse breathing, no special packing. Than just stand in the posture, no connecting to the earth energy, just standing and breathing. Feels less technical, and easier.
*******************
I think he and we all try to find ways to make the learning easier. We need to know our audience, and try to fit the teaching to the audience. This is reality.There is so many warning about his Sexual Gongfu. Just want to know why it is said the practice Mantak Chia is teaching is dangerous. I balance the upward draw with daily Inner Smile and Microcosmic Orbit, so I do not have any headache or side effects after practicing it. I still also agree to some complaints, that his Multi Orgasmic books are not good at all. I still stick to his old workshop videos and his first two books about the topic. By the way no one complains and warnings are posted about the thousand years old Fangzhongshu manuscript. They describe the semen retention (Huanjing Bunao) even less detailed. Regarding the healing love I would also highly appreciate to have all the Chinese terms, so a Chinese book of Mantak Chia’s teaching would be very nice. Finally I want to ask, do you recommend the testicle massage? Because if I do this, after several weeks a feel a little bit congested in the prostate. Even outer massaging the perineum and anus does not really help. So finally the semen will leak out as premature ejaculation. I stopped doing this, I do only the upward draw every morning, while having sex with a female or when I am suddenly aroused in public.
*********************
timing is key. Most ignore the warning and recommendation of the basics and just go into the sexual practice. This is the down side to making information available to the public. I think everything he teaches is ok, the key is to go slow and do them gently and do them after the basics.Final question, why some people complain that Mantak Chia has stolen books from different Master and republished them under is own name. How does this rumor came from, is their a truth behind this?
***********************
I think all teachers these days study everything available, look to see what is there, and how they present it and include it in their methods. You are reading all kinds of nei dan books, researching on google, asking MW, etc. Isn’t this what you are doing?MW has changed much too. He adds many other people’s qi gong forms and changes them, changes fusion, changes kan and li (based on channeling, etc.). Seems MC gets lots of criticism, but others get a free pass.
regards,
bagua
Hello,
I’m inspired to write a few comments . . .
>>>Was it really necessary to add the basics
>>>practices into the formulas to expand it
>>>to nine formulas, or just marketing strategy.
>>>I personally still prefer the old version
>>>and the old structure, was very clear
>>>with no comsic… and no supreme… .Master Chia and other Senior Instructors often change
practices, add practices, expand practices, etc.
Some of this is due to their long years of experience
with the system and their own personal insights formed
from that practice; in other cases, changes are made
for reasons having to do with ego or even
marketing strategy. In total, I don’t think that it
is one or the other; in many cases, it is a combination
of both.>>>There seems to be a secrecy about the
>>>6th formula Congress of Heaven and Man,
>>>and I really do not understand why.Be careful with terminology.
The 6th formula is called Congress of Heaven and Earth.
The 7th formula is called Reunion of Heaven and Man.
You want to be careful which one you are talking about.
In particular, the 7th formula is unknown.I don’t know that there is so much secrecy surrounding
the formulas. Even the 6th and 7th formulas have a
couple of paragraph descriptions from both M. Chia and
Michael. Maybe that’s all that was passed on to M. Chia
from One Cloud, a fragmentary description . . . and it
has not yet been adequately explored to be able to
expand upon it. Until you’ve mastered the preceding
formulas, concern about what follows them is irrelevant.>>>I have read that if one has a good Taijiquan teacher,
>>>and if practiced diligently, than the breath normally
>>>becomes deep abdominal and also expands to the back,
>>>so does this mean than there will be no need for
>>>Iron Shirt, or what do you think? I think Mantak Chia
>>>emphasizes packing the breath into the kidney
>>>due to the fact, that Qi pressure massages the
>>>kidney and frees it from sediments. Otherwise
>>>after people getting 40 years 30 percent of
>>>the kidney is already death and full of toxic.
>>>I wonder why Iron Shirt was incorporated into
>>>Mantak Chias system if good Taijiquan has
>>>similar massaging effect on the kidneys,
>>>because it sounds more Shaolin than Daoist
>>>to me? Any comments to this?Iron Shirt 1 is mostly about posture, body structure,
alignment. This is the purpose of the incorporation
of IS1 into Tai Chi Qigong. All of your movements
should maintain a good structure with an uncollapsed
body (like an IS1 posture). In fact the Tai Chi 1
book is called “the Inner Structure of Tai Chi”.>>>Finally I want to ask, do you recommend
>>>the testicle massage? Because if I do this,
>>>after several weeks a feel a little bit
>>>congested in the prostate. Even outer massaging
>>>the perineum and anus does not really help.
>>>So finally the semen will leak out as
>>>premature ejaculation. I stopped doing this,
>>>I do only the upward draw every morning,
>>>while having sex with a female or when
>>>I am suddenly aroused in public.There is no one-size-fits-all prescription for
everybody, and this is especially true of the
sexual practices. The guiding star should always
be: if it doesn’t feel good to you, don’t do it.
At the same time, if something isn’t right for you,
that does not imply it is bad for everyone.
You have to use your own judgment. This is
what makes Daoist practices so individualistic.Qi,
StevenThe bhūmis are subcategories of the Five Paths (pañcamārga, Wylie Tibetan lam lnga):
1.The path of accumulation (saṃbhāra-mārga, Wylie Tibetan: tshogs lam). Persons on this Path: 1.Possess a strong desire to overcome suffering, either their own or others; 2.Renounce the worldly life.
2.The path of preparation or application (prayoga-mārga, Wylie Tibetan: sbyor lam). Persons on this Path: 1.Start practicing meditation; 2.Have analytical knowledge of emptiness.
3.The path of seeing (darśana-mārga, Wylie Tibetan: mthong lam). Persons on this Path: 1.Practice profound concentration meditation on the nature of reality; 2.Realize the emptiness of reality.
4.The path of meditation (bhāvanā-mārga, Wylie Tibetan: sgom lam). Persons on this path purificate themselves and accumulate wisdom.
5.The path of no more learning or consummation (aśaikṣā-mārga, Wylie Tibetan: mi slob paI lam or thar phyin pa’i lam). Persons on this Path have completely purified themselves.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism)David has accomplished and realized the methods he teaches to a high degree. In Buddhist terms he is a stream enterer who achieved cessation and equipoise.
He has also accomplished the methods of the Thunder and Lightning Path (Lei Shan Dao) and Vajra. This grants the ability to generate a special kind of energy, which feels like a continuous electrical current. It is a rare achievement for Buddhists, Tantrics or Daoists, this power to wake up Kundalini and join Tai Ji. When it has been achieved, it is said one can go freely and return at will between lives while maintaining identity and memory. The practitioner becomes what Daoists call a Xian or in Sanskrit, a Siddha.
-http://www.davidverdesi.com/After more than 4,000 years almost since the dawn of recorded time, when Utnapishtim told Gilgamesh that the secret to immortality lay in a coral found on the ocean floor man finally discovered eternal life in 1988. He found it, in fact, on the ocean floor. The discovery was made unwittingly by Christian Sommer, a German marine-biology student in his early 20s. He was spending the summer in Rapallo, a small city on the Italian Riviera, where exactly one century earlier Friedrich Nietzsche conceived Thus Spoke Zarathustra: Everything goes, everything comes back; eternally rolls the wheel of being. Everything dies, everything blossoms again. . . .
-NATHANIEL RICH, Can a Jellyfish Unlock the Secret of Immortality?Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be
benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt
with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they
deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with.
May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a
bellows?
‘Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power;
‘Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more.
Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see;
Your inner being guard, and keep it free.
-http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htmIf there might be some particular skill, one should acquire, and if that would be solving problems, it’s not really a technique neither a system easily to be learned, but something more universal or…?
HOWDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WicAcuHlVBE (stablefordfear)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ_jhw5TuxA (saints)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_pdPb31U7s (stablefordimmortality)
Hi Xiaofa,
I think all the previous replies are far more answering then mine to come but here’s my comment:
Been in these practice’s since early 1980’s as well as studied with Lineage Masters in other Lineages of Taoist/ Buddhist practice. I am only going to comment on a couple points here.
One need’s a lineage Master that can supply two crucial elements Mijue & Kojue transmission. Generally a teacher will supply a prompt text that outlines main point of practice, along with other important information. Koujue refers to oral transmission, much is held within the lineage to preserve its teaching.
The Alchemical practices here are authentic; what Dao Canon says and mean is not verbatim nor is it in the Buddhist Pali scriptures that transmitted Buddha oral traditions. Alot of people attack the system out of jealous, have not practiced correctly or base everything on literal scholar writings. I can tell you from training with some of the best teachers in the traditions 60% or better is not written anywhere and is transmitted via oral transmission.
Many go to China,Japan or Taiwan in search of a Master to accept them its almost guaranteed to fail. There is much aversion from a Chinese point of you to accepting a outsider who is not from their indigenous culture.
The plus side is their are many great teachers here in western cultures who can teach the practices in the world they are use to. The system is only as good as one dedicates much time and effort to it. We can see this displayed by many of the Senior teachers who have been in Healing Tao from the beginning who are here teaching now.
A real Taoist experience is one that you cultivate daily,believe in and dedicate a lifetime to.
Snowlion
Hi snowlion
“Been in these practice’s since early 1980’s as well as studied with Lineage Masters in other Lineages of Taoist/ Buddhist practice. I am only going to comment on a couple points here.”
What is your experience with other lineage masters?
“Mijue & Kojue”
Would you like to share more about it?
“Alot of people attack the system out of jealous, have not practiced correctly or base everything on literal scholar writings…”
Why in your opinion is so?
Best, Jox 🙂
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