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Of course *referencing* taoist practices does not mean one has to *privilege* them by stating that they are unique and superior in their understanding of the most basic spiritual ideas, which they are not. I suppose that if one feels the need to do that one can do it, but I myself believe that all pathways to wholeness should be respected – or at least, if they are not to be respected, they should first be thoroughly understood.
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I dont think I have, this is your projection.>>Self Realization is just being in the natural state, which we always can do as it always exists<>Becoming is just a word to express a perspective, a view where one does not feel or believe they are were they are going<>From the perspective of “true nature” or your yuan shen, you are Being, are are this thing you seek<>The intellect and ego buys into the the idea of a separate self<>We practice to become aware of what exists now and to live from this awareness or spirit or being.<<
All people practice for this, but not everyone practices for *just* this. j
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Yes. There are many things in life we can play with.>>The natural state is always part of each person, you conditioning and attachments, etc take you from it, but its always there. people often slip in and out of it, being on a retreat, enjoying nature, etc.<>The very fact that we have to make this connection in our lives is an act of finding the centre again which causes a change in the physical world – this is evolution.
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Ok, that is your view. My view is it is always there, just need to become aware of it and then it takes time for all the emotional attachments to resolve, they will.<>True self is not arithmetic, add this, subtract this and lets see what the net result it.<>You assume alot. WHy do you think I am a Man?<>Ego and intellect do not realize it in the sense they figure it out<>Self Realization is just being in the natural state, which we always can do as it always exists<>Becoming is just a word to express a perspective, a view where one does not feel or believe they are were they are going<>From the perspective of “true nature” or your yuan shen, you are Being, are are this thing you seek<>The intellect and ego buys into the the idea of a separate self<>We practice to become aware of what exists now and to live from this awareness or spirit or being.<<
All people practice for this, but not everyone practices for *just* this. j
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Yes. There are many things in life we can play with.solar system is energy structure with nine major awareness belts, planets are materialized form of belts
each belt has unique frequencies and qualities.. soul remains strongly connected to the sun.. two clearly distinguished forms of soul
1) sun related cloud soul of hun
2) moon related white soul popo half comes into being at birth, preceding emergence of hun
soul starts incarnation process by moving through world of stars attracted by solar system where sun acts as a giant satellite station between world of stars and planets
karmic information carried by soul determines how long it will remain in different planets frequencies.. these frequencies affecting our learning possibilities and distinctive character qualities
during this incarnation the soul moves from un-manifested world through the star world, external planets, internal planets, and moon earth sphere.. an electro plasmic force of humanity around the earth functions as an awareness belt connecting the soul with life on earth
later info covers five star palaces and five cranial bones and the opening of the crystal room to star frequencies
I agree with Dog-God (obviously). Bagua’s attitude is good for cultivating unconditional acceptance, by seeing that our original nature ulitmately trumps all others levels of its expression/experimentation via the soul, mind, body, etc. Everything ultimately is co-evolving with our original nature.
But the question is, how does saying that or knowing that change one’s path in life? Is the attempt here to empower the Original Nature, or to empower the individual’s creative efforts? Bagua claims there is NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. I say there is NO SEPARATION, but there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.
The path (tao) is individual, it is experienced from the perspective of the Soul or the mind-body. Yes, the “information” from our life/soul experience is ultimately at death digested back into the greater whole, but tha digestion process changes the collective whole. The point is that the physical dimension of humans incarnating on earth is intentionally differentiated to allow learning, experimentation with free will/responsiblilty that does NOT exist in the same way at the collective level.
Another way of saying this: heaven and Earth would NOT be having the same experience if Humanity did not exist. Original Nature (in my definition) is what generates Heaven and Earth. So what we cultivate as humans is the cutting edge for Original Nature’s process of change.
The way I perceive Bagua’s attitude is essentially gnostic in nature: “We are in the world, but not of it”. Just kind of watch and enjoy it from an “inner distance”, don’t take it too serioiusly because Original Nature will resolve it all and your mind-based choices won’t really change anything. I think it’s a perspective heavily weighted to the shen/awareness side, which can detach/distance itself from the Jing/substance side that expresses the will. The Chi/Subtle Breath is what allows the movment or change, and keeps the two in balanced relationship.
I feel that when you lose this essential dynamic of the trinity, and dissolve in into an amorphous Original nature rather than making consicous its play, that you are depriving yourself and the whole of its full joy.
But I really appreciate Bagua holding his position so that i could more deepl clarify mine. That is yin-yang at play.
Smiling from my 3-in-1 Original Nature to Yours,
Michael… and I think you hit on the key when you say:
>>tha digestion process changes the collective whole. The point is that the physical dimension of humans incarnating on earth is intentionally differentiated to allow learning, experimentation with free will/responsiblilty that does NOT exist in the same way at the collective level.
Another way of saying this: heaven and Earth would NOT be having the same experience if Humanity did not exist.<<
That's really bang on as far as I'm concerned. I totally agree with Bagua's position as an *enabler* of evolution but can't accept it as a *replacement* for evolution. To me it's plain that the cycling which goes on in the process of incarnation is *for* something, that the change is *to* something, and that human choice matters, in terms of the embodiment of virtue and its power to make in this earth greater wisdom, greater love, greater awareness. Change to me could never be an empty phenomenon therefore.
Michael were you planning to address any of the other points raised whilst you were absent? I was particularly thinking of the copper wall in Jernej's 'mahatma machine', because I know you have copper in your roof – what has been your experience of that? Also Swedich Dragon started a debate about the difficulties faced by Eric Yudelove a while back and I remember was after some comments. j
. . . from this discussion is whether
or not Taoist internal alchemy and some of the advanced
beliefs of attainment of spiritual immortality/energy body/oversoul
etc. is “external” to the Tao Te Ching.While I personally believe that the practices/beliefs of
Healing Tao are, in fact, consistent and hinted at in the Tao Te Ching,
let’s play devil’s advocate for a moment and say no . . . after
all, at least to my recollection–please correct if I’m wrong–the
Tao Te Ching makes no mention of “what happens after death” or
even addresses the question of what happens after physicality ends.My initial feeling here is “so what?” Does that mean that such
beliefs should be discarded because they are not part of the
orthodox canon written in the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu?I don’t think so, for several reasons.
1. Doing so, ignores the fact that advanced practitioners–even
in Lao Tzu’s time I believe–knew of this material and
practiced it themselves in relative secret and didn’t pass
it on to the public.2. It ignores the fact that since the time the Tao Te Ching
was written, other people that were highly advanced in their
training have developed higher level skills and insights in
their own right–that have enabled practitioners to bring
themselves to a level even higher than that previously known
and recorded.3. Rigidly adhering to the material in the Tao Te Ching, and
not allowing for the inclusion of separate, additional material
due to new progressive insights not only prohibits the opportunity
for advanced spiritual growth, understanding, and advancement, but
it is some ways against the philosophy that the Tao Te Ching
espouses–namely the flexibility of change and the growth that
can naturally occur as its consequence.In summary, one can debate about whether or not the Healing Tao
exactly follows the model as dictated by the Tao Te Ching, but
the question that really should be asked seriously is:Does it matter?
I would argue no–especially since any of the techniques
can be tested again and again by anyone who chooses to
practice them, and it can be verified on an individual
basis as to whether or not the methods and philosophy
both work and are true.Steve
MW to B
“I am using Names (words) to let you know that all I find valuable is the Nameless, beyond words. But if you reply to my words using your own words, they will have no real meaning, since they are just words”.I found this description very much on the mark in describing Bagua’s viewpoint. One could even paraphrase this by saying:
“I am using the physical medium of later heaven to let you know that all I find valuable is the Unknowable, the origin. But if you reply to me using the physical, it has no real meaning, since the physical, the five element mind and yin-yang are illusory.
…
Hi Michael,
We of course are both aware of the Chinese hun/po multiple soul theory. Probably also you are aware that many, if not most, traditional groups like the Eskinos/Inuit, Amerinds, etc. believe in multiple souls as well. Particularly one group in Brazil believes that we have an animal and a vegetable soul. My question for you is, what are your thoughts on the types of societies/religions/belief systems that believe in a single soul, like Hinduism and others, versus ones that believe in multiple souls?
The method and type of alchemy you use doesn’t not allow for understanding what Lao Zi is talking about. As he says “my words are simple but difficult to understand”.
I think its incredible speculation to assume others have a greater understanding or achievement than Lao Zi or people of his time frame, I guess this includes Jesus and Buddha, it really goes against everything he teaches. The key is not to make distinctions, can you live from this view?
I worry about some of my tao friends, they think we deny our bodies, deny this life, deny our bodies, deny yin-yang, five phases and trinity, I do not know how they come to these conclusions, we experience them, play with them and enjoy them all, but we know they do not define us, they come and go and we know and live from our yuan nature. This allows us to enjoy the processes and patterns in life, this is freedom. See we have both, later and early, and enjoy them because we are free from their patterns and rigidities.
As I have always said, I do believe the formulas have the possibility to lead one to the place Lao Zi talks about, and to your amazement it will be the here and now, it will be your everyday, normal self. After you get off the floor from laughing we can chant once again.
From Kun Lun Mountains, Isles of the Immortals, The Here and Now.
Bagua
…in the empty vessel magazine I found interesting, particularly her comment about not understanding why there are so many english translations of the Dao De Jing when there are over 3000 other daoist texts that are relatively unknown in the west, many of them on some form of inner alchemy.
Then the question becomes: how deep can we go into embodying the multidimensional awareness of the here and now? How many levels of collective and individual awareness can we hold? How much can we integrate the one and the many? Is it intellectual understanding or experiential embodyment?
“But I really appreciate Bagua holding his position so that I could more deepl clarify mine. That is yin-yang at play.”
I already thanked him on the philosophy side of the forum. I have enjoy theses posts.
At one point I was trying to point out that one should be mindfull of ones intintions. Disharmoy at ceratin levels may be guiding one to us there strong intelect for the dominate side of the diharmony. This is often only revealed when one works with the level of three and five and nine because in the one there is no relation ship no harmony or disharmony, the disharmony can only be dealt with at the level of three or more. Its a dirty job always facing the music but some one got to do it. But I am telling people what they already know I am sure. I also tryed to stress the ever evolving soul through the cyle of life. I think wisdom is the name of the game I think we can see that in some of the new souls being born. Like my self, thats right ladies and gental men I am soul 5.0. I think its an important question to ask, why is man so different? I do not think I can say it better then you can at this time so I will just borrow your wisdom for the time being.;)
Smiling to the spiritual creamy center of my forum family.
@singing ocean
I agree totally. Why not also consider these other texts
on internal alchemy? My feelings on this are reflected
below in my response to bagua.While I agree that identification and realization of the
true self is the most important task a person can achieve,
and moreover while I agree that the Tao Te Ching is clear with
regard to this issue and that no other tool is ultimately
needed to achieve this, the problem is that as human beings
we are naturally curious. In addition to the big picture,
we want to know the details!Ultimately, such things are completely unnecessary. Realization
of our underlying true nature is really the only important
thing, but as part of our true nature we are curious. We crave
these unimportant details. Regardless of having an underlying
true core eternal self, we are fascinated by such questions as
“what happens to my physical perspective when I shift dimensions,
i.e. die?”, “what new vistas might present themselves then?”, “what
are the underlying mundane mechanics behind the process?”, “what
is the nature of the “great mystery”, the Wu Chi?”, “even though
the Wu Chi is incomprehensible, can a catch a glimpse of the mystery?”,
“when I transform out of this physicality, do I have a choice as
to what form I take?”, “do I have the ability to do things now, that
might affect that choice/change?”, “can I connect to some of these
answers *while* unfolding the realization of my true self?”As far as the big picture is concerned, all of these things are
unimportant. As such, they are not addressed at all by the
Tao Te Ching. Put simply, they don’t matter. All that matters
is the development of clarity in purpose and in self–again speaking
from a big picture point of view.However, we still would like to see the details, for they are
interesting in their own right. They provide the excitement,
joy, and fascination of experience. If one seeks to satisfy
this “ultimately useless interest”, one must look outside the
Tao Te Ching. One must use meditation, qigong, alchemy,
magic, and study other spiritual insights.While all of these things–at their core–serve to accomplish
the same goal of self-realization espoused by the Tao Te Ching
(which in and by itself doesn’t provide anything not already
clearly presented in the Tao Te Ching), they however can
provide stepping stones toward these meaningless but
fascinating curiosities that the Tao Te Ching does not address.Herein lies its true value; and maybe, just maybe,
we can have our cake and eat it too.Steven
… with this idea of Steven’s that the ‘big picture’ is separate to these many ‘incidental details’ which serve only as things to gratify our curiosity, or to ‘play with’ as Bagua says.
If one looks at the enormous impact that the five element theory has had on Chinese medicine, for example, one sees there the profound impact that spiritual achievement can have on the culture. The apprehension of a fundamental process there could not have been accomplished without genuine self knowledge. A positive understanding of health leading to effective medicine to me does not count as something to play with merely, and is not a question of trying to have our cake and eat it. It has importance in and of itself. The ability to understand spiritually leads to other things which change the world. Let’s not forget that the ‘Deep Healing Qigong’ was originally a medical form.
A great deal of my difficulty here comes from the lack of talk about worldly destiny or ‘ming’ if you like. If Lao Tzu was a real individual historical person, it is plain that he not only developed his spiritual essence, he also wrote a book that profoundly influenced Chinese culture, and eventually many other cultures. To me this is an example of acting in the world. One is born into the world with unique capabilities, unique purpose, and spiritual development helps one to see these purposes clearly and act without difficulty. These worldly purposes are important.
Another example might be Feng Shui. Some time ago on this forum there was a conversation on it, and certain people thought one’s intuition on earth energies was the most important thing. Bagua’s opinion though was that the art and science of Feng Shui was developed by seers of genuine spiritual development, who could perceive energies and processes that those without such development couldn’t. Therefore one must be careful not to rely on personal intuition without being able to perceive these energies and patterns. I agree with Bagua there!
This is another case where spiritual cultivation results in insight, not only into the nature of the self, but also into the nature of the cosmos, from which the self is of course not separate. The things discovered as part of spiritual science, knowledge, philosophy, and art, are not optional extras but valuable insights into the nature of human life, the earth, and the universe. They are treasures of human culture and insight, part of the development and evolution of our species. Some are truly great and of these tao te ching is one, but all things which contain real truth are precious.
The natural curiosity into spiritual processes that many seekers have is IMHO not some naughty egotistical timewaster, taking the person away from the ‘main point’. This ‘main point’ is not separate from the personal inclinations, just as the worldly destiny is not separate from the spiritual destiny, just as the body and the life incarnation are not separate from the spirit which is immortal. If wisdom is attained from spiritual practice the result is of genuine value to all of us, and this process is a natural part of being a human being. To enquire into the nature of life in all its aspects is part of worldly destiny and is not separate from the understanding of ultimate truth. j
Hey Jason,
I do agree actually with most of what you said on a personal level!
Bagua’s posts had led me to believe that he considered activities
external to the Tao Te Ching to be superfluous and ultimately
unnecessary (just my impression). Meeting him from a common frame
of reference, I was trying to present an argument as to why there would be
benefit for extending beyond that view. Hence my previous post was
along the lines of “ok, so you feel it is the awareness
of the true self; fine; but consider this . . .”As far as myself *personally*, I don’t feel as though just
self-realization is good enough, or is ultimately all that is
necessary for the growth of my being. For me, the detail
questions I mentioned *are* part of the big picture and
can’t be separated.As my advisor always likes to say, “you always need to see
the details!”. Yes, I do . . . because for me I can’t
get the big picture without them. It’s just part of
my personality. Although for other people, it could
be viewed as unnecessary. I respect this view, although
I don’t agree with it.If you want to know my actual feelings, then I would
have to argue that if “realization of our true nature”
is really all that is necessary, then why are we here?!
Why do we need to be physical for that?! Couldn’t
we do that without coming down here to be physical?
Ultimately I feel the reason is that we want more
than realization of our true self, because our
true self wants it all . . . whatever “all” means.Cheers,
Steven
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