Question for Winn and Others about Indan and Chinese Practice

natural movement is be blockage free

chi nei tsang instructs in searching for peripheral tension cause in the center, and
tao yoga trains center

moving through asanas in yoga is good
trainning of intrinsic spine muscles
if done correctly
(70% capacity of minor points, 100% of major points/chakras, relaxed structure)

yet with stretching there is a contradiction
for tension in e.g. legs is for a reason
if lower back is weak that is compensated with tension in legs that are a compensation
thus is leg tension is released, and no strenght in spine or kwa, that makes an uneasy structure that is then reinforced
by leg tension as a survival adaptation

strengthen the center and the legs do not need to be tensed
and as any unrewarding energy investment, it is released
in time

if you want power
stretching can be made a stretching, power of exercise in both,
it is a question of skill and intent
yang practices in taoyoga include tai chi form utilization as a projecting exercise

that was physical
the emotional approach is somewhat different so with tao attitude expect dissonance and suggestion
so approach wisely

dojo is a place where one learns what one comes there to learn
teacher keeps the space
and student studies what it wants to learn
if those don’t match
change the dojo,
one way or another
teacher is there to learn too
sometimes
🙂

I taught yoga for years, and yes it develops greater flexiility than qigong. But too much flexibility leads to weakness in structure. I switched to qigong for greater power, rooting, and energetic sophistication. But I got a huge amount out of doing the yoga, it helped open me up and clean out. Some people do both, that is individual choice. A lot of yoga is now taught very physically, it has mostly lost its original energetic roots. The link between energy body and physical body is much clearer in qigong. And the development of spirtual body in inner alchemy is much more substantial than in the yogic medidtative practices I studied, like kriya yoga.

I think going to India is a worthwhile education in any case, I went several times. The indians are more solar, and hence more heart centered than many Chinese, which is enjoyable. But they are also tend to be more emotional, and hence more scattered, or go to an extreme to control all of that by being overcontrolling. Huge generalizations, be aware of that.
hope this helps.
michael

-your question emphasized physical side, so will the answer
-it is written from position of attendee, not instructor
-there are opportunities for teaching yoga people certain tao principles, especially physical and etheric level

natural movement is be blockage free
-if one fall, it is generally not after a warm up
-so separating stretching and strenght, and warming-up and exercising is not top intelligent
-then it is difficult to name such activity, so ‘natural’ is usud as a residual

chi nei tsang instructs in searching for peripheral tension cause in the center, and
tao yoga trains center
1-chi nei tsang 1 book has photo of a there-is-a-blockage-in-dan-tien-that-is-manifested-in-a-limb (like hologram)
2-chi nei tsang 2 teaches the different cuts of dan tien openess
3-magus of java book and opening the dan tien
this is a quote not from the book, but book has similar description
‘At level 3 the practitioner begins to cut the “cords” that hold the Dantien in place. The successful student is than able to free his dantien from its immobile state and move it at will. This phenomenon can be felt by the casual observer who places their hand over the practitioner’s abdomen. From what I’m told it feels like a hard ball inside the abdominal region that moves independently.’
http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/3621%5C
4-tai chi world speaks of dan tien rotations, belly demonstration/test is the same
(e.g. chen quanzhong master level principles: dan tien rotation, silk reeling, cannon fist, 1yang-9yin )
(yang is upper/hands, yin is lower body/legs; hands do the work the work at the beginning, then their work becomes hidden/internal, legs then work directed by the waist, which is also called small frame tai chi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCEwSejMnHo
5-2,3 and 4 all refer to same principle
6-winns internal breathing is the subtle instruction after the gross dan tien development

moving through asanas in yoga is good
trainning of intrinsic spine muscles
if done correctly
(70% capacity of minor points, 100% of major points/chakras, relaxed structure)
-weird muscles of the body are: intrinsic foot, hand and spine muscles, plus ribs, shoulder blade and skull muscles
-some say that on the physical (tao)yoga is trainning the weird muscles
-intrinsic muscles of spine are first most important weird muscles:
A. short intervertebrae muscles connecting neighbouring vertabraes, fron and back left and right corner of vertabrae is attachment position
B. long muscles along the spine:
B1.kwa is front for lower dan tien, back is in two parts: kidney to pelvis and pelvis to leg bone. all three must work in unison
B2.longer muscles for middle and upper dan tien can also be located
-further discussion will be limited to lower body; principle applies also for middle and upper body
-in stretching there should be clear distinction between knee, hip and waist movements (a simplification, one can include also the many ankle/foot joint, of which there are a least three)
-waist is always the last in the chain of joints to reach full stretch if the joints do not stop movements at the same time
-in waist there should be clear distinction between small vertabrae and large kwa muscles movement: kwa gives power, small keep structure; if kwa work and small muscles collapse that means potential trouble; exception is next level of skill
-full stretch for foot, ankle, knee, and hip joint is 70% (meaning well bellow 100%)
-full stretch for spine muscles is 100%
(even kumar allows full energy release of spine joints in spine stretch, even for beginners)
-one can hinge on kwa/waist or other spine part, but not on hip or knee
(full stretching of spine long or short muscles does necessarily produce stress, full stretching of e.g. knee or hip produces stress)
-forced trunk stretch can be unhealthy (like heart strain and heart attack)
-the purpose of any asana/pose is work on one or a number of chakras or dan tiens

yet with stretching there is a contradiction
for tension in e.g. legs is for a reason
if lower back is weak that is compensated with tension in legs that are a compensation
thus is leg tension is released, and no strenght in spine or kwa, that makes an uneasy structure that is then reinforced
by leg tension as a survival adaptation

-observe juan li photos of iron shirt (the screw): how specific muscles are drawn big and how many big muscles in led are ignored
-until those muscles are developed, who will keep the house up
-especially if one throws away the utilization of secondary chain of muscles that at the moment keep the structure up
-an easy test in frog style swimming: can you imaging your body fully expanding, and all the time all the awareness is in the trunk or lower dan tien
-another is: can you lift your kwa without the use of any leg muscles
-until then any release of leg tension will be only temporal, for leg tension is still needed to keep the structure
-stretching only knee or hip is good for health professional as people can practise it, and will not get in trouble for it: peoples generally do not train enough to see the malbenefits of such practise; and since there is not emphasis in main chakras, things do not get stirred up and that means no problems for instructor

strengthen the center and the legs do not need to be tensed
and as any unrewarding energy investment, it is released
in time

-strenght trainning of spine will also create (a lot of) tension in the spine
-strenght trainning can separate working on small and long spine muscles
-when working on long muscles the spine structure should be kept (not collapsing the spine) and afterwards it is important that every such activity is ended with spinal stretch (to release tension in small spine muscles and any residual in long)
-when kwa can keep the spine up, the waist and the legs have the power and tension: then the legs can relese, which is the grounding release, sung, that kumar speaks of
(get a bag, put coins in it, take knife and poke holes in it: the coins are then on the floor; it is an analogy)

if you want power
stretching can be made a stretching, power of exercise in both,
it is a question of skill and intent
yang practices in taoyoga include tai chi form utilization as a projecting exercise

-you spoke of increasing the stretch, not releasing the tension inwardly
-hence it is a yang practise, example in HT is given with proclivity for physical emphasis

that was physical
the emotional approach is somewhat different so with tao attitude expect dissonance and suggestion
so approach wisely

-indian yoga istructors have vested interest in their serving the lineage of their some gurus, plus a potential monetary dependancy
-so such indian yoga yogi might have strong interest of not insuring you your space
-but with physical asanas and larger/beginner classes one can pull it off
-though then one stick out, but at least claim going to yoga or have an external structure in life

dojo is a place where one learns what one comes there to learn
teacher keeps the space
and student studies what it wants to learn
if those don’t match
change the dojo,
one way or another
teacher is there to learn too
sometimes
🙂

-sage is silent
-so you can teach as attendee via example and not usurpation