Re: for Ocean.: Shen and other ‘reflection of the moon’ concepts.

SO: So, I would think it is more effective than one-pointedness to get a direct communication from your vital organ shen to tell you what to do.

Based on this comment I believe I don’t see shen the way you see them or taught about them. To me, shen are the countless number of energy strands connected with other and this lifetime’s events that hold an emotional charge that needs to be resolved. They are not just connected with the major organs but with everything else in your body. Every itch you have, any pain or pleasurable sensation, any mental images or dreams that pass through your mind can be associated with them. And because of this, your comment holds no meaning to me, although it doesn’t mean it not true for you.

SO: This comes down to a problem of unclear language again; I think what you really mean is to observe the self, while I am talking about listening to the self and talking to it.

Yes, you notice correctly that we use different languages, and it may bring some misunderstanding. Although I’m not sure what you mean by ‘self’, observing the self, listening to the self all seem like the correct way to go about it. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘talking to Self’. Do you mean the formulas?

SO: In some ways we are saying the same thing, but when you observe the self, aren’t you observing the emptiness within the self, or is it the sensations, thoughts, etc as they arise and dissolve?

You observe whatever you observe- it maybe emptiness, and in a moment it will turn into fullness. As you go deeper, the levels of emptiness and fullness become more subtle and deeper, and there is no end to this path, just like any other path. It’s hard for me to answer you the questions you ask for a reason that I meditate I observe the sensations and the emptiness in them but I don’t mentally categorize what is what, if something is there or not.

There are some comments I read (not yours) that claim this type of practice bypasses jing-chi-shen transformation and goes straight for shen. This is an incorrect understanding of the path. Just because you don’t intentionally focus your mind in a specific way to help digest your food doesn’t mean it remains in your stomach in it’s original state.

SO: Do you actually consider the voice of the Vital organ shen as a valid communication, or is it unimportant because it will dissolve into emptiness anyway?

Just like a man trying to scoop the moon reflection in the pond and hoping to get the real moon. The minute he touches the water, the reflection of the moon is distorted and he realizes it’s not the real thing.
We create the pearls, assign colors to them, communicate through organ sounds but still all we work with is ‘the reflection of the moon’. It doesn’t mean it’s a waist of time, but eventually we may need to let go to continue further.

SO: Where does that clarity of thought arise from? Is it from the self? If it is, then what part of the self, the vital organ shen or the empty part, which is not really the self at all, but the collective mind?

I noticed that over the years my practices age getting less and less complicated, with all the mental debris of concepts slowly falling away. You ask deep questions but they have no meaning to me. These are the type of questions that, if I had the answer, I would never ask the question, nor would I care about the answer.