re: WHAT IS TRUE SITTING IN EMPTINESS?

Michael,

First thank you for not removing that post so many other people may benefit from it. I also thank you for your time giving such a detailed response to it.

I’ve made a new thread here instead of responding to that post, so if you want, you can easily delete it without any harm to other threads.

I would like to make this post as much productive as possible , so I will comment on the spiritual matters omitting any personal stuff.
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<<< I absolutely agree with most of what is said in the sutra cited <<< above, about relying on one's experience, that is the essence <<< of Taoist spiritual science. <<< Of course I take exception with the judgmental conclusion near <<< the end that this attribute is unique to Buddhism . Its a very <<< clever mental sophistry - elevating the teaching by pretending <<< to give to people a freedom that they always had: <<< "See for yourselves whether there is any other religious teacher <<< in the world who has given this highest freedom to his disciples <<< and audiences!" <<< I say, why even pretend to give what cannot truly be taken away? <<< Maybe folks back then were still into the master-chela type mental <<< slavery, but most people on the path of Tao are not. So no big <<< revelation here. --------- It's true- it is not unique to Buddhism. From my personal experience, Buddhist masters would never give any kind of freedom. Simply saying, there is no "giving" nor "taking" of anything. It's very common for them to end their Dharma talks with a sentence like: "But everything I just told you is mental BS. Go and verify it all for yourself." The same goes for Shakyamuni Buddha when he was explaining the expedient methods to Enlightenment in "Diamond Sutra": "Don't believe me, but test everything I say..." --------- <<< But I am a bit confused. Why does Bill Bodri rely so heavily on <<< saying repeatedly, "Well, Nan is the most enlightened teacher <<< around, and if he says it, it must be true. And that is all you <<< need to know about that issue. That is why you don't need to do <<< qigong or yoga, or anything besides Emptiness Meditation." <<< Is that telling people to rely on their own experience? --------- Master Nan teaches what he believes through his own experience is the correct method to cultivate the Tao. He omits any practices that he thinks are redundant or useless. Besides empty mind meditation, he also teaches Ch'an training, Zhunti mantra, 9 Bottle Breathing and advocates Hungry Ghost Feeding. (Asclepius- you can find some answers to your questions on "meritorious deeds" here: Hungry Ghost Feeding
One of Nan’s favorite comments is something close to this: “Drop everything. Drop even the “drop it”. Don’t listen to anything I’m saying. Let it all go.” He doesn’t teach people to rely on their own experiences- he teaches them how to VERIFY what all the sacred scriptures say through their personal experiences.

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<<< My comments, all based on MY EXPERIENCE, but that have so apparently <<< enraged Max were in response to false conclusions that Nan and Bodri <<< published in their book How to Measure Spiritual Realization. <<< Its no use to hide behind some sutra if you really believe differently <<< and publish that. Actions speak louder than words. The obvious fact is <<< that Nan and Bodri's book doesn't follow their own teaching of this <<< sutra, but is instead filled with hidden judgments about what people <<< WILL experience, extrapolated out way beyond their personal experience. --------- Like I said before, Master Nan teaches techniques he knows through experiential understanding are able to help a human being cultivate the Tao. Those techniques are based on success from numerous other Masters before him who have done the same, from the Buddhist tradition and other traditions as well. All he provides is the information, and then he tells you: Now go and verify it for yourself. As many students had questions about what can happen to the body while the transformation of jing, chi and shen takes place, Nan produced a reference based on his and other people experiences and scriptures. These are not judgments but careful observations. --------- <<< If Bodri had just said, look, I tried doing qigong, and had these <<< problems, and found myself trapped in stupor of chi, or didn't know <<< how to refine it into the pre-natal or primordial level so I felt <<< stuck, or whatever, that is fine. That is sharing. But instead he, <<< using Nan as authority, makes claims of omniscience, that qigong <<< and taoist alchemy are dangerous for everyone, that the progress <<< of good health or their kind of realization of immortality is illusory <<< for everyone because it doesn't meet up with their dharmic definition <<< of Emptiness Only. --------- Again, from all the conversations I've had with Bill, he never ever doubted qigong or alchemy can help a person to become healthier and happier human being. If you can point me to a concrete reference on being otherwise, I would surely like to see it. Empty mind meditation, as a starting practice, can accomplish the same goal. --------- <<< This is really a confession that Nan tried to go that route and failed, <<< and Bodri is just mouthing what his teacher tells him - NOT based on <<< EXPERIENCE at all. And I posted the 3500 scientific studies showing the <<< real health benefits of qigong, the doubling of lifespan, about which <<< Max and Plato shut up completely. --------- I believe in my last conversation with Craig yesterday he asked me the same question, and I will give you the same response as I did to him. I got great benefits from HT practices. I never questioned their usefulness when it comes to health and longevity. As for Master Nan and Bill Bodri, I don't have any information about their experiences with alchemy and qigong, so I can't comment on this. I don't know. --------- <<< Isn't that EXPERIENCE? Doesn't the sutra tell you to honor people's <<< right to their own EXPERIENCE? Are they honoring other's right to <<< EXPERIENCE? No. They are judging it, and ludicrously telling them <<< that the benefits are not real. Because until you believe in Empty <<< Mind, even your experience of good health and chronic illness going <<< away with qigong is illusory. --------- Yes, I agree, the sutra tells us to honor people's rights to their own experiences. Bill and Master Nan are not beating anyone or putting them in chains and torturing them so they accept what they say is true. They share the information. If people don't like what they hear, they can always go somewhere else... and they do. Judging happens every instance. This post is full of judgments. And even if I believe in both Empty Mind and qigong, I will get old and die. The question is, how using tools like Empty Mind or Alchemy helps me to overcome that? Should I bother with my body so much and invest so much time and energy to cultivate it if it eventually dies anyway? --------- <<< The ironies grow even more heavy. Nan borrows heavily from the <<< Taoists, saying the orbit will happen naturally, and all the pathways <<< of the eight channels will open. And listen to Plato exclaiming how his <<< Yang chi is arising within the cauldron - another statement that the <<< pathways mapped out by Taoist alchemists over the millennia will open <<< naturally. That's fine as far as it goes- the Taoists are all in favor <<< of natural unfoldment, the alchemists just figured out ways to speed <<< the process up. Neither I, nor they are not "inventing" anything new, <<< just imitating Nature, the Great Alchemist. --------- If the Taoists are all in favor of natural unfoldment, why do they try to speed the process up? Would it be correct to say, if you want a natural unfoldment of your alchemical processes within the body, you don't try to force things to happen or imitate anything? --------- <<< "Sitting in Stillness", the hallmark of zen practice, is considered by <<< Taoist alchemists to be a preliminary method, of clearing the post <<< natal mind before engaging in deeper levels with the lifeforce. <<< You can read this in the exegesis of the most famous text on this <<< practice by Livia Kohn, in one of her early books called Seven Steps <<< to the Tao. (Now out of print I believe). She analyses the entire <<< main famous text about the practice of "Sitting in Oblivion", and <<< it says clearly that it is preliminary to higher neidan practice. --------- I agree- the Empty mind meditation is a preliminary practice to move on to the states beyond Emptiness and Fullness, and even beyond those. Thank you for giving all this information. --------- <<< The simple reality, as I have explained previously, is that if you do <<< absolutely nothing your life will unfold at the pace of all post natal <<< life. Qigong and Alchemical methods accelerate the process - but need <<< to be done in proper sequence, or you will be held back by the life <<< force until you are ready. --------- I agree with that. Buddhist path, on the other hand, as taught by Master Nan, teaches the specific meditation practices that support and transform life force, but unlike Alchemy, the transformations within the body will happen on their own, so you don't need to know the sequence nor the timing. --------- <<< But there is another point that Nan is sliding past: the Buddha didn't <<< teach the orbit or the eight extraordinary vessels or about yang chi <<< arising in the cauldron or all the other Taoist benefits he is claiming <<< to Empty Mind Only. <<< Tantric sciences and the notion of chakras within the body didn't <<< arrive or re-emerge from the collective memory in India until a <<< thousand years after Buddha lived - in the 5th to 7th centuries AD. <<< I know, because I have sat at conferences with the best tantric <<< scholars in the country. We need the scholars to keep the inflated <<< claims of metaphysicians honest. The truth is, no one knows what <<< Buddha said, as everything was written down a hundred years later.... <<< so no use getting lathered up and posting porn because someone has <<< disagreed with the probable MISAPPLICATION of the writings of one of <<< his disciples. --------- These comments about what Buddha taught or didn't are just speculations so I will not address them. If you read all the sutras, especially Diamond Sutra, you will not find the reference to any cultivation methods involving what you mentioned. --------- <<< (By the same count, there are arrays of Daoist scholars in the west <<< who know far more about Taoist texts and history than Nan, who clearly <<< has demonstrated his knowledge of Taoism is superficial, and that is <<< reflected by his reputation in China. But guru-yoga types have <<< difficulty allowing for the possible experience that their teacher is <<< fallible. --------- As with many known teachers, there are opponents as well as supporters. You just can't please them all. And why try? --------- <<< So Nan is playing a double game - trying to claim the benefits of Taoist <<< practice, but pretending he is a pure original Pali Budhist which <<< didn't have chakras or inner body channels. And at the same time that <<< he knows more about Tao than the modern Taoists from whom he briefly <<< learned Tao. <<< I have no doubt that "Sitting in Emptiness" is a fine Taoist inspired <<< meditation that will accelerate natural energetic processes. It is a <<< way of dissolving the influence or fixed patterns of the shen. You <<< empty them out, so they can't play their old monkey mind patterns out. <<< It s a very useful TECHNIQUE. --------- Yes, emptiness meditation is a very good technique to accelerate natural energetic processes. --------- <<< The Inner Smile is a heart centered version of that dissolving process. <<< If you listen to my CD on it, after you move through all biological <<< systems and the five vital organ spirits, the blood, bones, and skin, <<< you dissolve the sense of their physicality and shift into non-physical <<< space. And rest there, smiling to the next level of subtle self - your <<< energy body - that sits in that apparently "empty" space. --------- The Inner Smile is an amazing meditation and will do a lot of wonderful things for anyone practicing it. It is very close to the empty mind practice and will turn into an EM practice if you practice it long enough. --------- <<< And eventually, with proper training, you will move beyond the vehicle <<< of the Energy body into the spirit body. And the spirit body functions <<< on inner sound frequencies, something I haven't seen mentioned by Nan. <<< Which makes me VERY suspicioius of his onmiscience about all spiritual <<< practice. --------- He talks about it using different language describing higher stages of cultivation. Also, some information about those stages is not shared freely with the public because it is simply pointless- no one can relate to it. --------- <<< There are many reasons I prefer the inner smile instead of "sitting in <<< emptiness" as the preliminary practice. I believe it was evolved by <<< later Taoist alchemists over simple emptying, because of its many <<< wonderful qualities: <<< 1. It keeps the meditator more heart-centered. <<< This becomes increasingly important as the adept progresses to realize <<< their role as mediator between Heaven and Earth. --------- Buddhist view is you don't need to attach yourself with any role or a though form- even as high as this, because of a danger of falling into spiritual stagnation or torpor. --------- <<< 2. It actively embraces all the disfunctional shen and one's pain and <<< suffering before dissolving it back into neutral. That's a bit more <<< loving than telling the pain that you aren't real, you are empty, go <<< away. For that reason, I feel its more integrative long term. But if <<< emptying is the only thing that works, no opposition from me. --------- In empty mind meditation, we are not telling pain (or anything else) that it's not real, for it will be just giving more energy to the problem. The correct way to do this is just to observe without any action on your part. Just like watching the clouds, nothing to do. You do it with pain, thoughts or visions- anything. Eventually, without enough energy to support them, they melt away. --------- <<< 3. Most Westerners will consciously or unconsicously always be in <<< resistance to the very notion of emptiness. This is the language <<< problem I described elsewhere. I feel that the Inner Smile does it <<< better by focusing on unconditional openness to the original chi, <<< or to the inner nature of body, self and others. Neutral chi field <<< allows for more accurate and truthful intention than continouous empty <<< chi field. --------- I agree that most westerners have trouble with an idea of emptiness or any serious Internal Alchemy cultivation for that matter. Most of us came into Taoist Alchemy under the notion of Sexual mastery- being able to satisfy your partner and yourself on a completely different level. Those two meditations are of two different natures that can transform into one another in a blink of an eye. I would view Inner Smile meditation as a sort of one pointed concentration dealing with the heart energy. One of the best one pointed concentration methods I've seen. --------- <<< 4. Emptiness taken as a metaphysic, instead of a method, can lead to <<< psychological feelings of depression in westerners. I have seen this in <<< my clients. --------- Yes, absolutely true. It is just a method that will be discarded when it served its purpose. --------- <<< 5. Sitting in Emptiness was evolved by meditators living in ancient <<< times, i.e. much closer to Nature and natural cycles. So when you <<< emptied yourself, Nature would fill the vacuum, and things opened up <<< quickly inside your body. <<< But modern people live in cities filled with craziness and false fields <<< of chi and negative thought forms. So there is a danger of that <<< negativity rushing in as you empty yourself. That may be one benefit of <<< Zendo focus on group meditation, and setting a strong protective field <<< in which to let go. Tao alchemy offers sophisticated ways to create <<< that protected field energetically. One is by fusing everyithing back <<< to the center. --------- Very good comment. The surroundings are very important when meditating, and that doesn’t just apply to Buddhist practices. Eventually, if you practice long enough, the place will be well protected from foreign energies, even in NYC. --------- <<< I became acutely aware of this problem of environment affecting <<< meditation when a western vipassana meditator came to me. He had spent <<< 9 years in a Thai monastery having wonderful meditations simply letting <<< go and watching within. He moved back to Boston, and doing the same <<< practice, began having severe crippling headaches. He came to me for <<< advice. I told him he was merely witnessing what was present within the <<< chi field of a modern city. I suggested he use intention and begin <<< flowing his awareness and breath in the orbit. It immediately balanced <<< him out and solved the problem. <<< Sure, you could say he didin't know how to empty himself of the city's <<< bad chi, that he was a poor victim of Semblance Dharma, because he <<< didn't know Nan's superior method that works for everyone. That is <<< quibbling abouit methodology. Whatever works best in short run is often <<< needed, and if the pattern, like the orbit, also will serve in the long <<< run even better. If someone wants continuous emptiness from the life <<< force and can get it, that's fine too. Its not what I want, or most <<< people want. --------- I can't speculate about the man because I haven't met him. Your last comment about "If someone wants continuous emptiness from the life force and can get it, that's fine too" puzzles me. Are you saying it is your understanding that if one practices Emptiness meditation, he empties himself out of the life force literally? Please be so kind to explain this. --------- <<< 5. For those who have trouble , i.e. deeply disturbed shen, I suggest <<< they drop all techniques until the danger of false yang chi subsides or <<< becomes manageable. This is where sitting in stilness practice is best. <<< But sitting in stillness and doing alchemical practices are not <<< mutually exclusive. It is all a question of timing, as with everything <<< in alchemy. --------- To me, it's more a question of merit and wisdom, all rolled into destiny. But your view is good too. --------- <<< 6. If Max or Plato or Nan or Bodri disagrees with what I have to say, <<< I am not going to send you degrading porn pics or attack your site like <<< a group of Zen Nazis or KKK Buddhists. Or disturb posters and imitate <<< others falsely. <<< If you are really upset, and need to harass some one as your method of <<< emptying out sick chi, Just call me and rant, or send me an email. If <<< its halfway intelligible, I will reply. I hate this as much as you do. Metta.