Repost from Below: Kan and Li Formula’s: What is the Immortal Self

Hi Intel:

You ask a very good and important question. These formulas and the commentary, the details, the explanations that are given as to what is Yuan Shen, Soul, Hun, Po, Immortality are mostly peoples intrepretations, their attempt to explain things. You do not see Lao Zi talk in these terms, which I do think is very important.

IMHO, there is that space in you that has and always will be eternal, its your true nature or in taoist terms yuan shen. All we need to do is turn our attention to it or in taoist terms use your Yi to focus on this aspect of yourself, not your yin, not your yang, but your Yuan. Eventually you realize this is your true nature, the yin and yang always comes and goes in its many varitations but you longer attach your self to it, you know it is not your true nature. You no longer give your Qi, Bloof and Jing to creations of the mind, dreams and fantasies of the future, hopes for some immortal being in the future.

The formulas have the possibility of allowing this realization to occur, as many traditions due, they also can allow for attachments to methods and looking for something outside oneself. This is a key, if you already are this eternal spirit there is no need to seek somewhere, look somewhere, built something, we just need to become aware of what already exists. I do believe if we read Tao Teh Ching this becomes clear. THese formulas have a subtle meaning, it gets one to be aware of yourself, pure awarness (consciousness, spirit, etc.) this is your true nature, its very simple but our desires to be special takes us from this space. What can be more special than creating an immortal body?

These ideas of what happens after death are just dreams and fantasizes and only take one away from the current moment, only in the current moment can we find this immortal aspect of our life that is the one thing that always exists. Qi Gong and Nei Gong put our Yi in this space, just focus on it, no more no less, seeking more or less takes one from it and unleashes an endless persuit of which the mind is incapable or realizing.

regards,

There is no death of your true nature, so i dont exist within your model. It is my experience the formulas are taking someone who does not realize their true nature and provides many formulas or meditations to allow for that to occur, and provide a practice to retain it as one gives up past attachments to emotions, feelings, dreams and fantasies. Just my experience. Focus on that part of you that is always present, this is your yuan shen.

bagua

>>”the explanations that are given as to what is Yuan Shen, Soul, Hun, Po, Immortality are mostly peoples intrepretations, their attempt to explain things. You do not see Lao Zi talk in these terms, which I do think is very important… All we need to do is turn our attention to it or in taoist terms use your Yi to focus on this aspect of yourself, not your yin, not your yang, but your Yuan.”

???contradiction???

>>”These ideas of what happens after death are just dreams and fantasizes and only take one away from the current moment, only in the current moment can we find this immortal aspect of our life that is the one thing that always exists.”

Even Lao Tzu said “know the world by what is inside yourself”. In resonance with that, we know what happens after death by practicing now. Practice is only a process of realizing a deeper aspect of the present moment, and in fact the goal is to get stuck in that deeper aspect of the present moment, or to experience the process of being in it.

When you say “metyhods may get you stuck”, you are still using a different method: that of focusing on what you think is the yuan “state” of being. Even that is a process in itself. The “goal” is to experience the process in each moment, and methods are useful for that.

many individuals are afraid of 2500AC and the state after their death
by as the osho-kingpin might say, are you afraid of 1233AC, when most current incarnate homo sapienses were not born
so: if one is not afraid of time when one is not (i.e. 2500AC)
and one is afraid of time when one is not (e.g. 1233AC)
that are two lessons and together three lessons
in the timeline
or one needs scriptures

You will find amongst many taoists this is true.

(sorry, I posted this below before reading it’s replacement here. I’m responding to the ‘need for speed’ Bagua and Nnonnth mentioned and to my initial experiences with Lesser Kan and Li)

I took Kan and Li just this past summer, about 3 months ago. I would say that I took a relatively fast track to that point, doing the first level formula in about 18 months. I did dedicate quite a bit of time daily to the practice, so it didn’t feel like it was too fast. However, I also tend to want to rush things.

I would say that I came into the HT system ‘in crisis’. I had lost my way in the professional world and was generally feeling pretty lost. Finding qigong (Ken Cohen and John DuCane prior to HT) answered something deeeep inside. For as long as I can remember, I had an unspoken question that I had been seeking an answer to. Qigong is providing the means to find the answers to that question and to also ask more questions. I find it satisfying at a very deep level.

Lesser Kan and Li practice is taking a very different tack from my approach to the first formula. I find that this practice is very dense/complex. Moving into it and through it I want to go back and revisit certain of the other practices. In particular I am doing standing tree much more now than I did in the past, and the desire for it is coming from somewhere deep inside.

I’m finding the following hard to put into words, but doing Kan and Li has opened up a perspective on the previous practices and on myself – kind of like de-densifying or adding space between nodes of experience. I’m finding – very early stage – that I can move between the nodes in a certain way. If you find this description obtuse, I apologize.

So this is kind of a roundabout means to get back to part of the original thread. I guess for me right now, I would describe the ‘soul’ as a process or a perspective. An event, not a thing, nor a state. It’s the force that moves the water in the river and the perspective that we use, or that we are, to observe the river as it flows by.

-dolphin

>>”Yuan by definition means original, our original nature is endless, is immortal, always has been and always will be.”

This brings us back to the question of whether our individuated personalities dissolve in to “original oneness” after death or maintain a symbiosis that is the result of cultivating while in a physical form (fusing shen with jing).

>>”We practice that death and life are one and not two, understanding this there is no birth and there is no death, there is just life.”

Collective consciousness cannot be killed and is essentially eternal. The difference between “death and life” is that while “alive” we are in a physical form, and after death, we may or may not have fused a certain amount of jing with spirit to give it substance.

>>”When you sleep you function, you breath, your heart beats, there is nothing you can do, nothing your little mind or ego can do to stop this. This “you”, that functions in sleep and functions when awake is your true self, knowing this and living from this awareness allows you know you are eternal.”

Yes, but what happens to your personality when you sleep? It is true that the higher self is always there, but are you able to have your individuated consciousness integrated while in sleep or death, or is it dissolved?

>>”You can focus on the transitions and analyze them step by step, tao is about focusing on the terrain allowing this all to exist and enjoying the ebb and flow of transitions, never mistaking the ebb and flow for our true nature, that which exists at all times.”

True that the higher self is always there, this should be self evident, but what about the INDIVIDUATED personality??? whether it dissolves or not is the question at hand.

>>”Immortality doesn’t happen, as if there is a beginning or end or at some time you are or are not immortal, we are part of eternal life, creator and creation are one, formulas should bring one to this realization.”

See point above (dissolution of individuality?) AGAIN.

>>”There is no integrating, no fusing, only not attaching to the false shen, the world of beliefs, fantasy, things that come and go. The Tao saying “Know the offspring but stay with the mother” is a good way to express it. Know your true nature and enjoy the endelss ebb flow of life.”

A very buddhist and christian viewpoint (in my opinion), as dissolution and giving up your autonomy is the goal there. Yet even contained in this quote is the simultaneous acceptance of both the individuated and original self, that both are balanced and harmonized.

Why is it that all alchemists after Lao Tzu are dissed and considered “impure” and not from the “ancient roots” of “original daoism”? Maybe read the book “original Tao” that translates and discusses the Nei Yeh by Harold Roth? it has many alchemical references, and “methods” in it, and the text is said the predate the DDJ (if you want or need a historical validation). Anyway, practice is the best validation.

Incidentally, the different influences and innovations (including western alchemy) in michaels work are what I believe validates it. How can you know that there was not much more of an alchemical tradition at the time of Lao Tzu, but was passed on by aural transmission? Would they write their secrets in a widely published text at the time, also considering that other practices like martial arts were often kept secret until a very recent time?