Repost from Below: Kan and Li Formula’s: What is the Immortal Self

Hi SO:

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

“This brings us back to the question of whether our individuated personalities dissolve in to “original oneness” after death or maintain a symbiosis that is the result of cultivating while in a physical form (fusing shen with jing).”
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Individual personalties are transient by nature, they are derived from beliefs, experiences, thoughts and conditioning. You can not control what you think, what you feel and when you think it. Your thoughts come from a place you cannot even express with definitive knowledge. From the sounds and smile to heaven and earth, a goal is to relax, quiet down and allow your “essential, yuan, original nature” to become your natural nature. It is our normal, natural nature, its all the invidiual personality, attachement to beliefs, desires, etc, Holding on the them, that takes one from being with their essential nature.

WHICH allows one to live in a spontaneous way, its not a fixed thing, its dynamic and spontaneous.

>>”We practice that death and life are one and not two, understanding this there is no birth and there is no death, there is just life.”

Collective consciousness cannot be killed and is essentially eternal. The difference between “death and life” is that while “alive” we are in a physical form, and after death, we may or may not have fused a certain amount of jing with spirit to give it substance.
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Who ever said to kill? An extreme statement.

>>”When you sleep you function, you breath, your heart beats, there is nothing you can do, nothing your little mind or ego can do to stop this. This “you”, that functions in sleep and functions when awake is your true self, knowing this and living from this awareness allows you know you are eternal.”

Yes, but what happens to your personality when you sleep? It is true that the higher self is always there, but are you able to have your individuated consciousness integrated while in sleep or death, or is it dissolved?
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Your personality is a like a pair of clothes, after you need them your wash them or through them away. You would never mistake your clothes for your essential nature, well some do and this attachment causes problems, same is true for personality.
Can you show me where Lao Zi talks about integrated Individual Personality?

One you truely realize your true self you will know the relationship between individual self and true self.

>>”You can focus on the transitions and analyze them step by step, tao is about focusing on the terrain allowing this all to exist and enjoying the ebb and flow of transitions, never mistaking the ebb and flow for our true nature, that which exists at all times.”

True that the higher self is always there, this should be self evident, but what about the INDIVIDUATED personality??? whether it dissolves or not is the question at hand.
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From the perspective of your true nature, there is no high self, not low self.
Indivdual Self (IS)dissiolves all the time, when you do tai qi or qi gong and really into it the IS dissovles, its just a function of the intellect/mind to allow you to function in the world, dress, talk, work, drive, etc. Use it as a tool, do not let it be your master.

This is the heart of the topic. Your view is not common in tao. Are goal is not to Immortalized the Individual Self, this idea to me stems from the goals of Emperors who felt they were God on Earth, like God in Heaven and wanted to become Immortal. But this anciet view beleived the living and dead existed simultaneously, so there is no reason to beceom immortal, you would be alive after heaven.

In my view it is not possible to “Immortalize your Individual Personality” you will be missing the entire goal of Taoist cultivation, which is to allow what already exists to become your normal, nature consciousness. You are eternal now. But some cant accept this, they need more so lots of stories have been developed for them.

>>”There is no integrating, no fusing, only not attaching to the false shen, the world of beliefs, fantasy, things that come and go. The Tao saying “Know the offspring but stay with the mother” is a good way to express it. Know your true nature and enjoy the endelss ebb flow of life.”

A very buddhist and christian viewpoint (in my opinion), as dissolution and giving up your autonomy is the goal there. Yet even contained in this quote is the simultaneous acceptance of both the individuated and original self, that both are balanced and harmonized.
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When you realize your true nature the role of Individual self is evident, its realizing what already exists, not creating or maintaing something.

Why is it that all alchemists after Lao Tzu are dissed and considered “impure” and not from the “ancient roots” of “original daoism”? Maybe read the book “original Tao” that translates and discusses the Nei Yeh by Harold Roth? it has many alchemical references, and “methods” in it, and the text is said the predate the DDJ (if you want or need a historical validation). Anyway, practice is the best validation.
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I dont know that “all” alchemists say what you say is true, its not my experience. I have read Nei Yeh, not a favorite of mine. From GE Hong, Tao JIng to some of the Dragon Gate, they all explore alchemy, its just may not be the version of it you use or prefer.

Incidentally, the different influences and innovations (including western alchemy) in michaels work are what I believe validates it. How can you know that there was not much more of an alchemical tradition at the time of Lao Tzu, but was passed on by aural transmission? Would they write their secrets in a widely published text at the time, also considering that other practices like martial arts were often kept secret until a very recent time?
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There may and may have not been detailed alchemy before Lao Zi, the point is I dont know and will not blindly believe in things.

If you study Chinese history, we know Yin-Yang and Five Phases developed separately and not to the Warring Periods, after Lao Zi did they begin to merge in theories, so alchemical theories that combine them and so much other informartion that did not exists until later could not have been part of alchemy in older times. Its like the I Ching, what we see today was not part of King Wen’s I CHing, it was a skeletan of what was created in the Han dynasty.

regards,
bagua

I dont want to go around and around. My view is alchemy is not rigid, it is flexible and not all the formulas are necessary for each person and there is no guarantee one does the formulas will obtain the stated goals, justs look at the many people who have taken the retreats. It has the possibilty of self-realization. There are numerous Taoist Alchemical methods, so Im very open about this and dotn like rigid people and systems.

“Thank you for FINALLY answering my question on what your view of the individual personality is (whether it dissolves or achieves a symbiotic relationship with the original self). Essentially you are saying that the individual self does not exist (dissolution of the self is also popular in many hindu traditions as well as christian and buddhist), good to take into account that many translators of the Tao Te Ching came from christian and buddhist backgrounds (John Wu for example).”
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Your individual self comes and goes like your thoughts and emotions, which you basically have little control over. Knowing your true self you dont deny this “individual Personalty”, and you dont attach to it, you live each moment in a spontaneous way and experience life as it comes.

Once again please show me in any version of Tao Teh Ching were Taoiat Cultivation is to “Immortalize the Personal Self”.

“Isn’t it interesting though that the more complex forms are said to have existed earlier, like the he tu and luo shu, from early prehistory? True, they may not be documented in written texts, but then it is a similar situation to the over 600 documented oral traditions from around the world that talk of a flood that destroyed the earth that is also spoken of in the bible? Myth or history? Believe what you want”
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He Tu and Luo Shu are simple diagrams, when they were created nobody knows. What you see is later generations place universal correspondences into these diagrams to fit whatever method they are using, I just dont think its honest to say they are from prehistoric times or this is what the “original” hermit tradition did or did not do, why cant people say we dont know and why cant modern day people clearly state what they added or created and what is a traditional method.

bagua

Have you ever ment Lao Tzu? I haven’t, and also haven’t met One Cloud, but do have the practice that was handed down.
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Lets focus on what we know and do not know from direct experience. THe honest answer is I do not know what One Cloud taught M. Chia, or if he did at all. I read many versions of Tai Teh CHing and have take from it what I can.

I wish more taoist would speak from direct experience and not hopes, dreams, desires, blind regurgitation of others.

Inner astral being of heart is normally mortal and connects immortal spirit (more rarefied frequency) to physical body (more dense frequency). They are moon and sun respectively. Astral self is like moon reflecting light of immortal self sometimes, sometimes joining with it and sometimes separating from it. They are silver and gold respectively. To shine, the silver must be polished = the soul/personality must be cleared, balanced, made positive and in agreement.

At death the astral soul exits the body. Gradually it will disintegrate at that point and the natural point of consciousness having recovered will go to the light of immortal self.

Inner astral being is personal and not collective, but all astral beings are connected if you can dissolve self-image enough to understand another being from the inside – this can be practiced with anything not only people!

That’s how I see it j