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Hello Nnonnth,
Great to see someone else entering the discussion.
>>This from an artistic magician’s perspective who knows nothing about chan and nothing about taoist alchemy! But is it any good?<< **It is pretty good. The formulas should be able to respond to any aspect of life, after all, they have been developed for such a long time. >>I am wondering what is the ‘chan’ attitude to sexual work, but hardly dare ask. I do agree strongly w/ Fajin that something needs to be *built*, I think in the end always by a sexual method. I can’t see masturbation + earth elemental yin as a replacement for a human woman in this process somehow! – but that might be my own lack of imagination I guess.<< **From my understanding, lesser kan and li or inner sexual alchemy can take the place of a woman, but it isn't the same thing obviously. Buddhists prohibit any sexual act, I think. Though, this "building" should occur on all levels of the self to meet any aspect of life head on. That's what the alchemy formulas do. Not only sexual energy, all energies are used, sun, moon, earthly, star, etc. Fajin
Hi Fajin:
Round and round we go, where we land who knows?
Fajin
Interesting stuff. Though, life is a constant process of relating. There are five elements within us, around us in nature, and everywhere. Like you said, we must harmonize them within ourselves by becoming interdependent on the macrocosmos.
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We dont become interdependent, we are interdependent. This is the different perspective we have, we dont “will” thise interdependence, it exists whether it is accepted or not.Fajin
This is where cosmology sets in and the formulas. Experiencing life as it is, is simply flowing in the process we call life. What if that flow is disrupted or blocked, how then do we go by it?
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This is a important question. By cultivation, your formulas, other meditations/chanting/reading/etc., this all refines our minds/body/shen, so when stresses and blockages in life apprear, we handle them smoother, easier, and quicker; we dont let 5-min disturbances last a week, this is maturity and in one way, it is not identifying with the many of the distrurbances created by society and dramas of people.Fajin
Though, you say that Chan is attuned with nothing, yet everything so you don’t need any models/formulas.
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I wish we could get over the missuse of this word nothing.Chan attunes to your true self, not your conditioned self, it does not deny it, it sees it as it is, so we dont indentfy ourselves with the accumalated desires, likes and dislikes that society dictates, I think your taoist teaching does the same.
Chan has a formula, its different that M. Chia’s alchemical methods. Meditations are formulas, koans are formulas, etc.
Fajin
In these formulas, we resolve ancestral issues, karmic issues, etc. to live life in wu-wei, from my understanding, not experience yet. The Chan approach, from my knowledge, sees that there are no issues in the first place! So, why practice formulas?
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Maybe its better to view “issues” as conditioning, we all have conditioning and patterns created by society, parents, etc and from the unknown.Fajin
I think that there is a reason that Daoists have formulated these alchemical methods that have withstood the test of time for a reason, Bagua.
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What test are you referring to? Who can we meet that has become an immortal, who in this world can we consult on this? Do you think Lao Zi, Wen Wang, Fu Xi, Chuang Zi, all uses these exact formulas? If no, how did they attaing their immortality?Fajin
A CHOICE of many formulations to work on many issues in life. We can stay in our space and act out spontaneously and experience life as it is, but will we be prepared for what life has in store for us?
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I have met many buddhist far more able to deal with the pressures of life than practicing taoists. I have also seen many advanced healing tao people also become buddhists, as it gives them a missing piece in their development.Fajin
In life, there is flow to. We must somehow condition ourselves to be able to flow to meet these incoming blocks/disruptions to our flow. Living in the space just doesn’t cut it.
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Since you do not practice Chan, why do you assume its training does not prepare one to handle the incoming blocks / disruptions from living life.Who I am is not important, what I express may have some value.
I will share one thing with you, just my experience. I love parts of the taoist tradition, not all of it, what I resonate with. But I have seen “taoists” feel they are elite, superior, unique, special as compared to other traditions. That if they only knew our formulas they would do ours. As far as I know, very arrogant.
In my view, the only thing that matters is what is your direct experience with the practice and do you grow and become a better person. I believe if one is a good person, makes a positive contribution, by being postive to others, give unconditional love to others, they are fullfilling their spiritual aspect of life.
I know those attached to formulas cannot accept this, the formula traps them, hopefully someday the formulas will set them free.
Trying to grasp the sparrows tail,
baguaBagua,
You keep spinning away from me, it’s as if you keep going round and round, when will you stop?
>>I have met many buddhist far more able to deal with the pressures of life than practicing taoists. I have also seen many advanced healing tao people also become buddhists, as it gives them a missing piece in their development.<< **The man is always more improtant that any system of method, but these Healingdao formulas allow you to take on any aspect of life. Just because people switched to a Buddhist path, it doesn't mean that these formulas require missing peices. They are complete in their intent. It is the man who seeks completion from other paths. >>Since you do not practice Chan, why do you assume its training does not prepare one to handle the incoming blocks / disruptions from living life.<< **Because koans, matras, and empty meditations have very minimal effects on jing, qi, and shen. It doesn't accumulate or circulate any energy. It does build jing by being celibate, but what's the point of having that jing if you don't do anything with it. There is no internal work, just emptiness. How are you conditioning yourself to meet the demands of life, if self has no value. You said, "Who I am is not important, what I express may have some value." Like I said, you are free to express, but what value will that expression/action of yourself have if you don't work on yourself. It's like saying, I can attack my opponent with a deadly fajin strike to his carotid artery and kill him, but if you don't condition your body to use fajin, you simply cannot use it. You have to actually practice to do it. Lao Tsu said that you should empty the mind to fill the belly, not empty everything. Again, there needs to be some internal work. Koans and emptiness meditations or whatever it is that Channers do, does not condition you to be able to meet life. It conditions you to live in your personal space and act spontaneously with a non-grasping mind, but eventually whatever expression/action you make must come out of that turtle shell and reflect in life. It will just be a spontaneous empty action. Work on all aspects of the self. Emptying your self is work on the self too, but when you are empty, what self is there left? >>I will share one thing with you, just my experience. I love parts of the taoist tradition, not all of it, what I resonate with. But I have seen “taoists” feel they are elite, superior, unique, special as compared to other traditions. That if they only knew our formulas they would do ours. As far as I know, very arrogant.
In my view, the only thing that matters is what is your direct experience with the practice and do you grow and become a better person. I believe if one is a good person, makes a positive contribution, by being postive to others, give unconditional love to others, they are fullfilling their spiritual aspect of life.
I know those attached to formulas cannot accept this, the formula traps them, hopefully someday the formulas will set them free.<< **I hope you don't get the idea that I am arrogant or trapped. I don't mean to slam Chan or anything like that, I just want to acknowledge things for what they are. Chan's way of acting out of your personal space is good, but it just doesn't cut it. If everyone in the world acted from their personal space, do you think that the world would be perfect? Would there be no more troubles? There's more to it than that, Bagua. Life is simple, but not as simple as living in your turtle shell and acting from it. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Are you prepared to meet those reactions using koans and empty meditations? >>Trying to grasp the sparrows tail.<< **You will always try if you don't condition yourself to do it with the utmost ease. You have to practice with the body, not koans to be able to do this movement, then will you get it effortlessly. Such is the practicality of the Daoist way in everyday life, it empowers functionality in all areas of life. Fajin
Hi fajin:
Life never stops, why should I? I know my true nature, do you?
I dont think we will come to a common ground, but hope it will occur some time.
You need to slow down and read my posts slowly, I did not say, the taoist left to be buddhist, I said they included it in their practice. You may not be able to do this, but others can. Any you might find this inconceivable, one more thing to digest.
Spiritual enlightenment is not limited to your view of the chinese model of jing/qi/shen. Was jesus cultivating his Jing with your tao methods? SPiritual enlightnment is not based on specific qi circulation and jing cultivation, many do this and never reach your view of immortality, and you keep talking about a goal you have no experience with. Is there one person you know, that you can rveal who they are, hat has become and taoist immortal?
You think buddhists dont work on themselves, if its not your taoist cultivation, than it does not count?
**I hope you don’t get the idea that I am arrogant or trapped. I don’t mean to slam Chan or anything like that, I just want to acknowledge things for what they are. Chan’s way of acting out of your personal space is good, but it just doesn’t cut it.
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I suggest you talk with other people and think about things. Chan is not about activing out of personal space, it is living from the same space Lao Zi talks about, can you grasp this?Take a break, do your taoist alchemy and get back in a month or so, or is the ego to active to do this?
smiling in the tao,
baguaHell oagain Bagua,
Maybe round 5 might be the last round and this discussion will be the end, but this discussion is a good learning experience for the both of us, wouldn’t you say?
>>Life never stops, why should I? I know my true nature, do you?<< **If life starts, then it must stop, what has a beginning must have an end. What is your true nature, Bagua? Or must I practice Chan meditation in order to experience it because words cannot express this, as words cannot express the feeling of whole body orgasm. >>Spiritual enlightenment is not limited to your view of the chinese model of jing/qi/shen. Was jesus cultivating his Jing with your tao methods? SPiritual enlightnment is not based on specific qi circulation and jing cultivation, many do this and never reach your view of immortality, and you keep talking about a goal you have no experience with. Is there one person you know, that you can rveal who they are, hat has become and taoist immortal?
You think buddhists dont work on themselves, if its not your taoist cultivation, than it does not count?<< **Jesus journeyed to Tibet and studied there. What is in the bible is misleading. It does not talk about what he did between the ages of 12-30. You said that we are immortal, now you are questioning wether they exist? All Daoists try and reverse the process of wu to shen to qi to jing, this I have verified with 3 masters on Wudang mountain. Of course, there are different paths/methods as you said. Just as you said, spring to summer to autumn to winter so too is jing to qi to shen to wu to dao. Even Lao Tsu (wether 1 man or group of individuals) and every daoist alchemist tries to do this. There is never any guarantee that what you are doing will be a success. It is up to you wether it will succeed or not. As for the validity of immortality in Daoist terms, I will leave this to Michael, but for the record, my out of body experiences are proof enough to me. Btw, did you read the Book of Changes (I Ching), it might change your perspective. About Buddhists, don't they say that self is an illsuion? This is from what I read between Michael and Max. >>Take a break, do your taoist alchemy and get back in a month or so, or is the ego to active to do this?<< **I did not yet receive Michael's chi kung fundamentals #2 wudang pearl method of which I must learn how to form a pearl so I can do it in fusion 1, 2, and 3, which I have also ordered. I have a very powerful energy body as I have done alot of qigong and meditation in my life, I am absolutely no beginner but I just need to learn the methods. I should be able to plough through them in a couple of years. How long did it take you to go through all the formulas, Bagua? I have yet to conquer the ego through fusion, but the inner smile proves to be helping. Have you conquered your ego? I think not. Bagua, maybe when you one day learn that there are higher plateaus to reach and your desire to reach those plateaus is birthed, than you will see that Chan cultivation is incomparable to Daoist inner alchemy in this regard. I just don't like how Chan disregards internal energy work, and you say that you are just using some healthy qigong to compensate for that. Anything that brings you into that awareness. This is not the original intent of Daoist inner alchemy, they are complete on their own after having gone so many years of refinement. Of course, people like Zhang, Sanfeng or Chung Yun LI, etc. might not have done these exact formulas but they used the same model. Jing to qi to shen to wu to Dao. This is unique about the Daoists and what these formulas do. There is nothing wrong with putting in some of your Chan experience into Daoist nei dan, but to pervert these formulas for something other than Daoist immortality was never the intent of the Daoist model. If you are a Daoist you follow the model, jing to qi to shen, etc. Your intent is Chan, but your method of practice is anything that puts you into a Chan state including Daoist alchemy. This is what I disagree with Bagua. I can't say anything to change your view that we are incomplete or that immortality is real so continuing this whole discussion on that is pointless. I will wait for Michael on this one. P.S. I wish you plenty of luck David. From your good friend, Fajin!
Fajin,
I read through the whole thread and believe you misunderstand what teahings as taught by Buddha are and also have high hopes based on the descriptions that come with Michael’s formulas.You have great trust in Michael and what he said, therefore you should go on and study what he teaches and dedicate time to practice it. In order to understand Chan and the effects that come with it you need to spend time following that Path. They don’t have fancy descriptions and claims. That doesn’t mean the Path doesn’t produce simular results as the Daoist alchemy. But to know that you need to be there. For now, it’s just guesses and assumptions.
I would also recommend one thing. Study taoist classics and texts that were written by Immortals (like for example, the commentary by a taoist Immortal to Tao Te Chin that a gentleman just put up on the board). If you read carefully, ALL of them talk about Emptiness as a foundation for Alchemy to take place. You don’t have pure heart free of desires and clinging- you alchemy will be a simple visualization exercise. You said ‘Lao Tsu said that we should empty the mind to fill the belly’. Maybe we should?
Hi Fajin:
You are a funny person.
There is no begnning and there is no end, look at the cirle. If we cannot agree on this, lets break until one of us gets an insight on this.
My true nature is your true nature, they are one, got it. The tree in front of you is your nature.
WOW, this is too much. Now you want to say Jesus learned the chinese alchemy. Will you say anything to support your view?
Taoists and people can try anything, reverse wu, shen, qi and jing, long way to see what is in front of you.
Your “out of body experiences are proof enough to me”, is not enough for me to confirm how you view tao alchemy, written in deep metaphor, not to be taken literally.
I have dabled in stuying I Ching, lets not discuss this or we need our own list and I will humble you my young friend, not sure your ego will handle this well.
Fajin
About Buddhists, don’t they say that self is an illsuion? This is from what I read between Michael and Max.
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They say things change, they say ego is not fixed, and it is accumulated experieinces, feelings, distortions, conditioning, etc, this is not your true nature, read the masters.I dont agree with most of michaels posts on his intpretration of chan.
**I did not yet receive Michael’s chi kung fundamentals #2 wudang pearl method of which I must learn how to form a pearl so I can do it in fusion 1, 2, and 3, which I have also ordered. I have a very powerful energy body as I have done alot of qigong and meditation in my life, I am absolutely no beginner but I just need to learn the methods. I should be able to plough through them in a couple of years.
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GEE, you have lots of opinions and have not even done Michael’s fundamentals!How long did it take you to go through all the formulas, Bagua?
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about four cycles of JingI have yet to conquer the ego through fusion, but the inner smile proves to be helping. Have you conquered your ego? I think not.
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I dont want to conquer the ego, you got too much martial arts on the mind. I see the ego as it is or try to, when my ego/conditioning acts up, all i need to do is say “I got an ego problem” and it disolves. We dont want to “attach” our identity to it. Good luck on conquering it, maybe you should go in the ring and duke it out, let us know who wins. Bring your fundamentals and fusion with you into the ring.May the force be with you as you try to conquer your ego, keep us all informed.
bagua
Hello Max,
Thank you for the reply. I really have absolutely nothing against the Buddhists and Siddharta. My view of them might not be the best and I apologize if I have said any false assumptions about them.
About emptiness, Daoist nei dan does not serve to make the mind empty as do Buddhists. Buddhists attempt to still the mind, but what is making the mind unstill? From my knowledge, each organ controls a part of the mind and so any movement in the mind is because the emotions corresponding to the organs has not yet been resolved. So, inner smile does this, and thus, the mind is easily still by going after the root source. This I have experienced with the inner smile, the best way to calm the monkey mind. Going after the root source of the wandering mind is what the inner smile accomplishes. In taiji, one foot is empty and one is full, does not mean that emptiness should pervade all over. So too, in Daoist nei dan we do this, right?Is your name Metta? What happened to our nice discussions of internal martial arts, lately we so strongly disagree with each other, Metta?
With peace,
Fajin
Bagua,
>>There is no begnning and there is no end, look at the cirle. If we cannot agree on this, lets break until one of us gets an insight on this.
My true nature is your true nature, they are one, got it. The tree in front of you is your nature.
WOW, this is too much. Now you want to say Jesus learned the chinese alchemy. Will you say anything to support your view?
Taoists and people can try anything, reverse wu, shen, qi and jing, long way to see what is in front of you.
Your “out of body experiences are proof enough to me”, is not enough for me to confirm how you view tao alchemy, written in deep metaphor, not to be taken literally.<< **How many times do I have to go through this! Jing/physical body is linear (BEGINNING AND END AS IS YOUR BODY WITH 2 ARMS AND 2 LEGS IT BECOMES A CORPSE WHEN YOU DIE), qi (is cyclical, GOT THAT!!! And shen is eternal, PLZ look at the post to Nnonnth from Michael, using space to slice time! If you saw you're true nature you wouldn't be here arguing with me in the first place about Daoists being arrogant, etc. PRACTICING Daoists just reverse creation and attempt to reunite with Dao through the jing qi shen wu model. You have very little knowledge of this from what I can see. It is YOUR CHOICE wether you can believe in Daoist view of immortality or not, I just say what I know of it. I could care less if you choose to believe in it or not, so could the immortals. >>GEE, you have lots of opinions and have not even done Michael’s fundamentals<< **I've done Chia's, they are similar, no? >>I dont want to conquer the ego, you got too much martial arts on the mind. I see the ego as it is or try to, when my ego/conditioning acts up, all i need to do is say “I got an ego problem” and it disolves. We dont want to “attach” our identity to it. Good luck on conquering it, maybe you should go in the ring and duke it out, let us know who wins. Bring your fundamentals and fusion with you into the ring.
May the force be with you as you try to conquer your ego, keep us all informed.<< **There is no need to conquer ego, use no force agianst it, just go to the root source, your organs as I've been saying for the whole time. You are very ignorant, Bagua. Making jokes of others shows you are still far off on your path. I wouldn't mind duking it with you though, just tell me the time and place. Hahahaha. Have a nice day, Mr. Twicken, go hide in your turtle shell! Regards, Fajin
Hi Fajin;
I think your many posts reveal your current understanding, I will let them and you have the final word.
Good luck in your journey,
bagua
Addiction to present physical moment was a risk you were presented as running. Discounting importance of physical present moment was a risk I was presented as running. (some time back). NN
>>The formulas should be able to respond to any aspect of life<< I understand but not exactly what I was saying... however. NN
>>koans, matras, and empty meditations have very minimal effects on jing, qi, and shen<< I have to tell you mate, on this one you are just plain wrong. NN
Nnonnth,
Jing are essentially the hormones in your body. In most cases, jing is from kidneys that are adrenal hormones burned into bioelectric power (qi). How does sitting there and reciting a mantra accomplish the jing to qi translation better than literally steaming your sperm?
Good day mate!
Fajin
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