Round 6 (cont’d): Wu Ji and Concsiousness

Hi Faj:

We cannot not agree on your presentation, so I will let you play with others.

Enjoy the play.

bagua

The point made by Fajin is an important and profound point, that underlies the entire discussion.
It is not the focus of Round 7 on completion, but it has great bearing on its underpinnings.

Its why I translate wuji as Supreme Mystery – we cannot categorize as any form of consciousness that we are aware of, it is certainly not original jing, chi, or shen, which emerge from it.

If wuji can be known, it can be overthrown.

The created – incuding the Life Force itself – cannot know the Unknown source of its creation.

We can have a relationship to “not knowingness”, but even to define it as a void or emptiness is linguistically and inentionally incorrect, in my view.

The wuji bears no responsiblity for the mess humanity finds itself in.
It created original spirit, breath, and essence within its murky primordial darkness.
It gave free will to original spirit in that original mysterious act. But original spirit, and all who partake of that free will, must take responsibility for their use of that free will.

In the same way, parents give birth to children. They raise them and love them as best they can.
Hypothethical case:
Then some of those children grow up, get caught in a dark downward spiral as an adult, and murder someone. Should the parents be sent to jail ifor life for instigating the murderous impulse in the child?

If the wuji is responsible for humanity’s mess, then humanity has no way to correct the situation or impact it unless wuji commands it.

But Dao is a wheel, a sphere-archy, not a pyramid, a hierarchy. All beings share the same original will at their core, and each being that derives its existence from this will to exist is responsible for exercising that will in a manner that is in harmony and balance with the other 10,000. free wills.

Fajin has appropriately dtrawn a linguistic distinction between consciousness beginning with the first self-awareness of Original Spirit-Breath-Essence.

It doesn’t make snese to name the wuji as being the same thing with the same qualities as consciousness; it limits its freedom, it puts boundaries on the Dao, and all Daoist agree that the Dao is limitless.

Perhpas the wuji is Anti-Consciousness, or a differnet medium altogether holding Anti- and Consciousness as one whole; we don’t and can’t know. We can only observe that we have a degree of free will, and track that to its source, and notice as we do that, that we seem to gain more freedom.

That is my experience. If doing Chan practice does not lead to greater freedom, then what does it lead to?
An Emptiness that deprives humanity of freedom? I doubt that is bagua’s position or aspiration from what I have heard, although some more rabid frothing in the mouth lovers of Emptiness might argue for that case, that freedom itself is too limited a concept for Beingness or absolute Nothingness . But we have to examine those states in relation to the physical bodies that exist now, to see if they are real or permanent or better in some way. The fact that physical creation continues seems to argue against these absolutist viewpoints.

Where Fajin’s point leads is to the right of any being, once it is embodies as a being (even if it continously is interdependent with the collective Being or Source) – to continue to exist.

The is the most fundamental right, you could say, the Universal Birthright, of all beings: the right to continue existing. Contnued existence has a price tag: living in harmony and balance with the Whole, which is embraced by the medium of the Life Force, we could call it the totality of Consciousness.

If you violate that mandate for collective harmony, you are NOT killed. Rather the Life Force mercifuilly mirrors your pain and contractedness to you – you suffer it until you release and transform it.

Otherwise it is all a puppet show, no free will in any dimension of being. And who is pulling the strings?

Not the wuji – it is wise to resist interfering in the process it begat. If it interferes with the principles of the Life Force, and with the lawful transformations of jingi-chi-shen, then it violates the right of what it has given birth to. And it won’t or can’t do that.

My Atlantean teacher called it ‘Ring Pass Not”. Once a being comes into self-awareness, past the ring of undifferentiated awareness into self-consciousness, it has the right to exist. The Source cannot Un-Will it to exist, it cannot kill it – it would be killing itself. It must allow it a natural path/existence.

In his heart of hearts, since Bague is really a Daoist, I suspect he agrees with this as well. The laws of unity, yin-yang, wu xing (5 phases), and bagua forces cannot and will not be arbitrarily changed or denied by the wuji.

Yours in the Supreme Mystery,
Michael

Hi Michael:

My breif comments.

mw
Its why I translate wuji as Supreme Mystery – we cannot categorize as any form of consciousness that we are aware of, it is certainly not original jing, chi, or shen, which emerge from it.
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Jing,qi,shen are the offspring of wu ji. Know the offspring but stay with the mother.

wm
If wuji can be known, it can be overthrown.
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Only ego thinks like that.

wm
The created – incuding the Life Force itself – cannot know the Unknown source of its creation.
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The intellect cannot, but we can feel or experience it. Ego/over-developed intellect cannot know it, that is why we cultivate. There is a part of us that can attune to it, this is enlightenment.

wm
We can have a relationship to “not knowingness”, but even to define it as a void or emptiness is linguistically and inentionally incorrect, in my view.
************************************
yes, and so much more that gets talked about in alchemy.

The wuji bears no responsiblity for the mess humanity finds itself in.
It created original spirit, breath, and essence within its murky primordial darkness. It gave free will to original spirit in that original mysterious act. But original spirit, and all who partake of that free will, must take responsibility for their use of that free will.
*****************************
Murky, primordial darkeness? MMM, this is from the narrow, limited human view.

mw
In the same way, parents give birth to children. They raise them and love them as best they can.
Hypothethical case:
Then some of those children grow up, get caught in a dark downward spiral as an adult, and murder someone. Should the parents be sent to jail ifor life for instigating the murderous impulse in the child?
**********************
the parents suffer in the worst way.

wm
If the wuji is responsible for humanity’s mess, then humanity has no way to correct the situation or impact it unless wuji commands it.
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I dont know why you say this, I have not stated this.

wm
It doesn’t make snese to name the wuji as being the same thing with the same qualities as consciousness; it limits its freedom, it puts boundaries on the Dao, and all Daoist agree that the Dao is limitless.
***************************
dao is the way, a way always has patterns, you seek to work with these patterns in alchemy. Dao is not free from Wu Ji.

wm
Perhpas the wuji is Anti-Consciousness, or a differnet medium altogether holding Anti- and Consciousness as one whole; we don’t and can’t know. We can only observe that we have a degree of free will, and track that to its source, and notice as we do that, that we seem to gain more freedom.
*********************************
sounds good. dont rely on consiousness for all, the magic and mystery of life is not realized with consciousness, its still on the dual plane.

MW
That is my experience. If doing Chan practice does not lead to greater freedom, then what does it lead to?
************************************
it leads to the realization creator and creation are one.

wm
An Emptiness that deprives humanity of freedom? I doubt that is bagua’s position or aspiration from what I have heard, although some more rabid frothing in the mouth lovers of Emptiness might argue for that case, that freedom itself is too limited a concept for Beingness or absolute Nothingness.
******************************************
no response necessary

mw
Where Fajin’s point leads is to the right of any being, once it is embodies as a being (even if it continously is interdependent with the collective Being or Source) – to continue to exist.
*****************************
no beginning, no end.

wm
The is the most fundamental right, you could say, the Universal Birthright, of all beings: the right to continue existing. Contnued existence has a price tag: living in harmony and balance with the Whole, which is embraced by the medium of the Life Force, we could call it the totality of Consciousness.
***********************
i agree with all except last last sentence, which is still on the lower plane, ego needs to exist so needs to think it can be conscousness of all existence, a big barrier to transcend.

mw
If you violate that mandate for collective harmony, you are NOT killed. Rather the Life Force mercifuilly mirrors your pain and contractedness to you – you suffer it until you release and transform it.
**********************************
or you physically die.

wm
Otherwise it is all a puppet show, no free will in any dimension of being. And who is pulling the strings?
***************************
there is no such thing as 100% free will, in the sense one can do anything they want.

mw
Not the wuji – it is wise to resist interfering in the process it begat. If it interferes with the principles of the Life Force, and with the lawful transformations of jingi-chi-shen, then it violates the right of what it has given birth to. And it won’t or can’t do that.
**************************************
You word this as if you can change these normal processes, no one can. They can only play with them to one degree or another.

MW
My Atlantean teacher called it ‘Ring Pass Not”. Once a being comes into self-awareness, past the ring of undifferentiated awareness into self-consciousness, it has the right to exist. The Source cannot Un-Will it to exist, it cannot kill it – it would be killing itself. It must allow it a natural path/existence.
****************************************
YES, YES. Wu ji is in each person. Creator and creation are one. This is chan realization too.

WM
In his heart of hearts, since Bague is really a Daoist, I suspect he agrees with this as well. The laws of unity, yin-yang, wu xing (5 phases), and bagua forces cannot and will not be arbitrarily changed or denied by the wuji.
*************************************************
Who said they would be, silly statement.

Being a taoist is like the clothes and shoes I wear, they get me to some places. But I have lots of clothes, sometimes tao clothes, sometimes chan clothes, they are not me, now this is real freedom.

Now Michael, is Wu Ji nature the same as Dao nature?

bagua

Hi Fajin:

I do think your participation is very valuable and hope you continue participation, I’m sure many value your feedback, I do too.

My focus is on the beginning, because this is where most spiritual traditions require some blind faith, which may be because we are incapable of understanding it. For me, you and Michael’s understanding of creation is very important, and I would like to hear your opinions, doesn’t mean I will beleive or accept them, Im open to it though.

So for me, if I understand you correctly, Wu Ji creates Intention, this Intention eventually becomes Yuan Shen, and Wu Ji is then separate from Intention and Yuan Shen, am I accurate or do I misunderstand you? If it is separate then creator and creation are separate. If they are inseparable, than at all times we can live according to the principles or flow of Tao and realize our true nature, Wu Ji.

Thanks,

Bagua