Round 7 (Prelim.) Humans Have a Binary Soul

>>”When you say ‘mind attachemnts’, do you mean Karma? If so, it is possible to keep the purity through the youth into the adulthood. Possible, but not probable. Your actions would probably create enough momentum to pull you into the web of attachments and suffering. It took Buddha many years to be free.”

Once a person has let go of all attachments of the mind in the physical realm, then they are free from suffering in your view?

the practical guidance is the person knows it and seeks assistance or self-adjustment.

but the real point i was making is that the dynamic balance of Yin-Yang is normal, and one inseparable whole, like the tai ji diagram, it has paramaters for the normal range of yin-yang interaction. Seeing the one in the two is key.

Before yin-yang digrams there was only a picture of a hill, shady and light side. One hill viewed from two perspectives, always one hill. We have hun-po, always one spirit.

bagua

Singing Ocean,

A Buddha is only free of attachments. Once you become a Buddha, you are free from the cycle of karma and suffering. It is all about attaining Buddhahood. My understanding of this comes from my times at Shaolin. I was practicing Yi Jin Jing and was going to move onto Xi Sui Jing with a qualified master. In Xi Sui Jing, the Shaolin monks attain Buddhahood in an approach quite similar to kundalini yoga. I don’t know how other Buddhists attain Buddhahood, or enlightenment.

Fajin

Hi Bagua,

I’m going to add something more.

i know what you mean about saying that the Hun and Po are total and not partial. About what Michael says in regards to Novak, I agree with him that the split occurs at death, and we need to do something in this lifetime. Daoists attempt to achieve immortality, Buddhists attempt to achieve enlightnment. They both try to do something about birth-death.

Wether you think so or do not think so Bagua, I think that Chan takes care of that body-spirit split as well with the Hun and Po souls. In Chan, your body, mind, and spirit naturally align themselves to balance and harmony and everything is taken care of. However, when you use concsious action, or intent, then you must use discretion because what you are doing may not be naturally aligning you in the way of the Dao. I’ll illustrate with an example.

Naturally, the body’s musculature will attempt, like the enire body to re-align itself towards balance. This would mean it would be getting softer as was when you were a baby. In the Wudang school of Gong Fu, a soft musculature is what you are aiming for because Daoists try to follow balance and harmony. In the Buddhist Scholin school, they use hard qigong to make the musculature hard like iron which is counter-productive to nature’s re-alignment within the body.

This is what I like about Daoism, it tries to understand how the body, mind, and spirit would naturally align themselves to balance, and use concsious action, or intent, to work on that particular field. I think what Michael is getting at with Novak’s idea is trying to extract the correct approach in nature’s re-alignment of the Hun and Po souls much like the microcosmic orbit in the body, or the soft/hard musculature.

Buddhists do attain a superior fighting potential compared to the average man obviously, but it is not in tune with nature’s way, or Dao. In much the same way, enlightenment obviously does have a significant effect on spirit compared to the average man, but is in tune with Dao? That’s the question.

I think Chan, unlike other Buddhists, does achieve the same objective because the split is taken care of if you ALLOW natural re-alignment. But this is where we differ Bagua. Because to me, unlike Michael, the debate lies in that Chan just misses that one imortant wild card, which is intent. The intent of self.

Like what I was saying about self-creation, that Daoists simply simulate the creation process by re-creating a pearl in the body and following Dao in accordance with that pearl and thereby attain spiritual immortality. The point that I am trying to make is not that Chan does differently than Dao, because they both attempt re-alignment, but doing it yourself or allowing nature to do it within you is the big issue.

I can see how for you Dao and Chan are one like the sun and moon after much contemplating. The only thing is that you are missing the big peice which is concsious action, not allowing the workings of nature within you, but doing it your-SELF. The concsious action of reversing the twist.

Smiles yo you my friend,
Fajin

Hi dog:

Well said.

If one can see what you say in the Tao Cosmology, then its all worthwhile.

bagua

Fajin:

Faj
i know what you mean about saying that the Hun and Po are total and not partial. About what Michael says in regards to Novak, I agree with him that the split occurs at death, and we need to do something in this lifetime. Daoists attempt to achieve immortality, Buddhists attempt to achieve enlightnment. They both try to do something about birth-death.
***********************************
Something happens at death, one tao master told me a new tai ji is created, always a new tai ji is created in transformation.

In my view, and it is from my personal experience dabbling in Chan, enlightment includes realizing you are part of an eternal universe, creator and creation are one. Also, its a awareness where there is no place for immortal vs mortal, this dynamic does not exist anymore. That idea kind of becomes silly.

The birth-death model is a false/ego model, its not real, Chan contains methods to force this realization. In my view, Dao does this too.

Faj
Whether you think so or do not think so Bagua, I think that Chan takes care of that body-spirit split as well with the Hun and Po souls. In Chan, your body, mind, and spirit naturally align themselves to balance and harmony and everything is taken care of. However, when you use concsious action, or intent, then you must use discretion because what you are doing may not be naturally aligning you in the way of the Dao. I’ll illustrate with an example.

Naturally, the body’s musculature will attempt, like the enire body to re-align itself towards balance. This would mean it would be getting softer as was when you were a baby. In the Wudang school of Gong Fu, a soft musculature is what you are aiming for because Daoists try to follow balance and harmony. In the Buddhist Scholin school, they use hard qigong to make the musculature hard like iron which is counter-productive to nature’s re-alignment within the body.
******************
I dont think that particular school represents all schools of buddhist qi gong, I know some da mo shaolin teachers and their systems, they are not like that, they are like your wudang description and that is how I do it and teach it.

Faj
This is what I like about Daoism, it tries to understand how the body, mind, and spirit would naturally align themselves to balance, and use concsious action, or intent, to work on that particular field. I think what Michael is getting at with Novak’s idea is trying to extract the correct approach in nature’s re-alignment of the Hun and Po souls much like the microcosmic orbit in the body, or the soft/hard musculature.
****************************
Ok.
But it can be done without the complex intellectual model, obvilously if we have immortals, they did it and did not have the complex intellectual terminology. I just believe we need to be open to many ways to practice this.

Faj
Buddhists do attain a superior fighting potential compared to the average man obviously, but it is not in tune with nature’s way, or Dao. In much the same way, enlightenment obviously does have a significant effect on spirit compared to the average man, but is in tune with Dao? That’s the question.
**************************
Not sure what you mean. But there are many wu dang that are heavy, hard, and not refined and they say they are daoists, i would not use them to represent all daoists.

Faj
I think Chan, unlike other Buddhists, does achieve the same objective because the split is taken care of if you ALLOW natural re-alignment. But this is where we differ Bagua. Because to me, unlike Michael, the debate lies in that Chan just misses that one imortant wild card, which is intent. The intent of self.
********************
Well, I think it contains lots of intent, maybe different intent than you practice.

Faj
Like what I was saying about self-creation, that Daoists simply simulate the creation process by re-creating a pearl in the body and following Dao in accordance with that pearl and thereby attain spiritual immortality. The point that I am trying to make is not that Chan does differently than Dao, because they both attempt re-alignment, but doing it yourself or allowing nature to do it within you is the big issue.
***********************************
To practice Chan takes as much discipline, hard work and intent to practice each day and each moment.

The pearl is just one piece, aside from the collection of qi, it represents the refinement of you as a person, refining yourself is the key, if you prefer the pearl method, it changes too.

Faj
I can see how for you Dao and Chan are one like the sun and moon after much contemplating. The only thing is that you are missing the big peice which is concsious action, not allowing the workings of nature within you, but doing it your-SELF. The concsious action of reversing the twist.
*****************************
It takes intent and effort to walk, talk, sit, meditate, write here, think about the things we discuss, we can not live without intent, Chan has lots of intent.

Tai Ji has two sides and a center, center force is the same. Yin-YAng, hot-cold, hun-po, as a tai ji model both must exist together, otherwise it is not Tai Ji, it is something else. Conscious-Unconscious must exist too, this is the way of dao, we can never be consious of everthing, or it would not be tai ji, does this make sense?

Smiling in the Dao,

bagua

Bagua,

I would like to discuss some things but I am busy at the moment, I’ll be back on Monday or Tuesday.

Thanks,
Fajin

Hi Max:

There are so many variations of Marrow Washing. I do not think the method Chia and Dr. Yang, Ming-Jing taught were the original methods, the are modifications of centuries. I think the original ones were very gentle postures and movements, if its true Da Mo creted them, it is most likely his Yoga background that guided its creation.

Can you share what types you have learned or have exposure with?

thanks,

bagua