Shame about sexual feelings

Hi Wendy,

Good to hear from you 🙂

Regarding this interesting topic,
I’m starting to wonder if there is an issue
here of “wanting approval” that’s lurking behind
the scenes here . . . sort of like when you are a kid,
a lot of what is done is done to try to seek parental
approval and praise . . . and it’s as if part of
that residue remains. Even though we are grown,
we are still seeking approval . . .

To explain:

In a lot of cases, we all have this vision of how other
people view us–in some cases, rightly; in other cases,
wrongly. Nonetheless, there is some “image” of us that
is present in the minds of others–or at the very least,
an image we think exists.

Since people generally don’t go about having sex in
public and in mixed company, sexual feelings and desires
don’t form a component to this image. However, the reality
is, is that we have these thoughts, feelings, desires.

This creates an incompatibility between the image that
others have of us (or at the least, the image we think
others have of us) and who we *actually* are.

This creates shame, because we feel like we are not
living “up to” this image . . . this projected version
of ourselves. A sense of guilt that we don’t match
this projected persona. Feelings of guilt and shame
arising from feelings of inadequacy . . . “If they
only knew what really goes on inside, I wouldn’t
be accepted, etc.”

In this way, it not only becomes a judgement issue,
but it becomes a fear of judgement issue. A feeling
of being forced to being constrained to certain
behaviors that don’t match the whole spectrum of
who you are as a person. The tension between those
two ends–the real you and the image of you.

Even the simple situation of being in public and
becoming aroused creates this tension. People in
the surrounding environment don’t know, so their
image of you is different from the internal landscape.
It can create feelings of dishonesty with respect
your interactions with others, as they are not
“getting the full story”. “Being open and honest”
would definitely change “your image”, LOL. You’d
be labeled as a weirdo/creep. Keeping it private
creates an internal secret/internal tension.

So, in other words, I think it does go back to your
earlier comments about how the sexual force knows
no boundaries, whereas there are boundaries in society,
and it is the friction between the two that creates
the shame.

How to resolve this?

I agree that self-acceptance is the key.
Although that can be tricky because there is
an undercurrent of disbelief running throughout.
The imagined unacceptance makes it hard for the
self to believe and to self-accept. Ideas such
as “surely there must be some credibility to all
the imagined opinions of others that people have
of me, so how can I–myself–believe differently?”
Trying to believe “what feels like a lie” doesn’t
promote full self-acceptance. Residual inadequacy
remains. The desire to try to realign yourself
with the false image remains, and the self-denigration
that goes along with the inability to see that through.

In total, what this does is put one in an uncomfortable,
raw place. A place where one can’t fully accept
oneself, and yet can’t “realign” oneself to this
falsified image either. States of continual inadequacy
remain. What is the solution to this?

Maybe this is the reason we all have the desire on
some level to pair off. To find at least one other
person who we can let into our private little world and will
hopefully accept “the true version” of who we are,
rather than the one we project.

Of course, going off in this direction of discussion
brings up issues of loneliness, which opens up a whole
new can of worms.

But I suppose all such feelings as discussed here are
much more “core” and much more “primal”, and at
the root of soul need . . . part of the ongoing struggle
of being here in the physical world . . .

THE DESIRE TO FEEL LOVED

Steven

May I add a viewpoint. By understanding our true nature, Yuan shen, we can be freed from the shame/ugly dynamic and the denial/acceptance dynamic. Hopefully we evolve to where we can experience life in a natural way and enjoy natural aspects of life as they are, not adding commentary and societal influence. We have an innate intelligence that knows these things.

Of course we do what we need to survive at any given time, but we should keep the “truth” as our guiding light, keep our cultivation and what that means as our guiding life. By truth I mean the fruits of alchemy, of cultivation, how does a cultivated and realized taoist view these things, that is what we should remind ourselves and those around us.

Bagua

I don’t think I agree with this fully. “Understanding your true nature” is not the
solution to every problem.
********************
Not sure why you make this comment, it can indicate lack of it.

Through a lot of work, I think I understand my true nature pretty well, but I still recognize an incompatibility between who I am and “my role in society”.
*************************
It would be good if you have others confirm this, if you have not. Often we are not capable of this.

Unless you are totally disconnected from your heart,it is impossible to not feel that tension between those disparate realities.
Unlike other emotions which you can falsely identify
with the self, sexual feelings by their very nature
involve others–so it is somewhat impossible to *not*
acknowledge the commentary.
******************************
Where I was going is sexual desire is just a strong desire, how we respond to it, how we label it, how we name it, make sense of it and give meaning to is in large part for semi well adjusted people, stems from conditioning of society, friends, culture, etc. Change those and often the entire dynamic changes. Look at how many European countries view sex.

Pretending that there is no tension is akin to sexual repression, and believe me
I see A LOT of sexual repression in the Zen community.
*************************
A community does not indicate they all live according to the insights of some. They are in a community for a variety of reasons, one being they are kinda lost and are looking for guidance, a place for change and transformation. Those environments may or may not help. We should not judgment them based on perfection, this is fantasy.

Unless you disconnect from your heart, or unless you sexually repress, you are going to feel the tension. There is no getting around it.
************************
Tension is one thing, judging one’s desire as shame, evil, etc. is another thing. What I am suggesting is education is key in this area. How we learn to understand this urge, energy, desire is the key. We can change the way we view these urges, desires.

I PROPOSE the urges and desires really is about a desire and urge to engage in life, a drive to live life, but its gotten very twisted. Tao practices is a process to transform the way we view, experience and express this life force, this desire. This is what alchemy is about, restoring our understanding and expression of our primordial energy, our life force, which includes sexual energy and desire.

But respond to things for 10, 20, 30, 40 years and its not so easy to change.

Understanding does not change the fact that tension actually exists, and being connected to your heart, it something felt as a tangible effect. It is unrealistic
to assume that you can evolve to a state similar to “Commander Data” from Star Trek and not FEEL the tension. To be honest, I don’t think that would be desirable either.
************************************
Its how we respond to tension, this is what its about. This tension is the raw material of alchemy. Actually we love the “tension”, its life itself, tao practices teach us how to play with this tension, transform it to other things for heath and spiritual development.

Bagua

>>>S: I don’t think I agree with this fully.
>>>”Understanding your true nature” is not the
>>>solution to every problem.
>>
>>>B: Not sure why you make this comment,
>>>it can indicate lack of it.

If, as an example, you injure your hand. You
get physical pain as a response. You can
have perfect awareness of “who you are” and
not identify with the pain felt in the physical
body, recognizing that the pain is not part of
you. This can diminish the degree to which
the pain “bothers” you, but the fact is, is
that the pain still exists and the awareness
does not change the fact that one can observe
an “uncomfortableness”. This inner tension
or uncomfortableness is present regardless of
any understanding that it is not part of you.
This is, of course, true provided you don’t
buy into the Buddhist philosophy that all
is illusion and delusion, which I don’t.
There are things that have a “reality” to them
that are nonetheless not part of my self-identification.

My point is that there are no absolutes
in Daoism. “Understanding your true nature”
is not a cure-all. It does a lot of things,
but not all things. If due to an injury,
you start bleeding profusely from the head,
“understanding your true nature” is not
going to do much, while medical attention is.

This was the meaning to my statement.
Certain things require a pragmatic approach
that “understanding” does not provide.

>>>S: Through a lot of work, I think I understand
>>>my true nature pretty well, but I still recognize
>>>an incompatibility between who I am and “my role in society”.
>>
>>>It would be good if you have others confirm this,
>>>if you have not. Often we are not capable of this.

I have not had good experiences with
such approaches in the past. ^_^

>>>>Tension is one thing, judging one’s desire as shame,
>>>evil, etc. is another thing.

At least you admit that there is a tension present.
That’s promising. 😉

As for the judgement aspect, there can be a difficulty
especially with regard to sexual issues. Your “inner
voice” can tell you one thing; while society can be
saying something different. On one hand, you trusting
your inner voice in contrast to the hive mind of society
is a form of arrogance. It’s saying I value the
opinion of 1 person over that of (1 * N) people, where
N=the number of people with opposing views. It is
presumptuous and arrogant to assume that you are “right”.
On the other hand, defaulting to the outside opinion
contains a subtle judgement against the self and lack
of acceptance if there is an incompatibility.

My point is, is that it is unrealistic to think that the
heart is not going to get involved in the tension. The
very fact that there *is* tension, creates heart involvement!

Unlike non-sexual issues/emotions–in which there is often
some underlying corrupt pattern that needs to be removed;
on the sexual realm a lot of the pattern is not “viral
software”, but is instead part of your internal architecture.
In other words, it is part of who you are, and not something
separate from you you’ve misidentified as you. This makes
the situation much much slipperier, as you can not just
flush the pattern. This makes it a situation where you
are forced to keep dealing with the tension on a regular basis,
rather than something you “can address and move on with”.
Do you know what I mean?

If I get angry, it’s because I’ve misidentified a particular
situation as something personal, and this misidentification
is a false pattern generating the anger. Flush the
pattern/misidentification, and the anger goes away. But
this is something you can’t really do with sexual issues,
as the pattern *IS* part of you. You can’t flush it. It’s
more core, more fundamental. It’s a friction that can’t be
removed. I suppose you could label it “shame”, but we don’t
even need to go so far as to label it. Labeling creates
certain concepts and boxes it in to certain parameters. The
bottom line is that there is some kind of uncomfortable
tension/friction that is present–regardless of how you want
to name it.

Dealing with this *ongoing* uncomfortable tension/friction
is quite challenging I find, because it’s part of who you are
and is not separate from it.

S

>>>I am not sure why you mention it because
>>>it does not address anything I said, it
>>>has no relevance to my post.
>>
>>> This is, of course, true provided you don’t buy
>>>into the Buddhist philosophy that all
>>>is illusion and delusion, which I don’t.
>>>*********************
>>>I suggest “Buddhism, Plain and Simple, by Steve Hagen
>>>Nice book and will clarify alot of typical misunderstandings of buddhism.
>>
>>>There are things that have a “reality” to them
>>>that are nonetheless not part of my self-identification.
>>**************************
>>>You are going off on something besides my post

No, I’m not. I’m referring to the fact that
“understanding your true nature” is not a panacea
to all problems. Not everything is about misidentifying
things that are not you, with what you truly are. Recognizing
a distinction doesn’t make the distinction go away, *unless you
believe that, that which is not you is illusion*. So
my comments are completely relevant.

Regarding your book reference, that is one person’s interpretation
and that is all. We can argue about “what Buddhism really says”
DE JURE, all we like. But DE FACTO, practitioners and teachers
of the field teach something different. What constitutes Buddhism?
The field of practitioners and teachers that promote a given
philosophy. If you say it is something different, then you are
believing in a personal interpretation of the Buddhist scriptures
that does not match what is actually being practiced.

I have, on videotape, Buddhist practitioners of many decades,
some who have lived a hermit lifestyle doing nothing but practicing
Buddhism saying the phrases “all is illusion; all is delusion”.
I can show you sometime if you don’t believe me.

>>>Assuming it is not someone with a serous problems,
>>>then its just an intensified pattern and association,
>>>deeply placed with years of conditioning, actions,
>>>habits, automatic responses. Just think about all the
>>>formulas necessary to deal with this: sounds, smile,
>>>fusions, kan and li’s.

Considering this perspective, which I don’t think I agree
with completely, then it goes back to my comments
about pragmatic approaches. Effective tools are still
needed to deal with such issues.

>>>Sometimes people who go to spiritual traditions
>>>may need professional assist, our practices are
>>>not the sole answer for them, in some cases not
>>>good at all.

Going off on a small tangent here, I think that some
instructors take this concept too far. Their
approach to teaching is a little too dogmatic, in that
they are only interested in teaching specific exercises
without providing much emotional support. Sometimes
when people start doing practices, internal issues start
coming up from within, and these same dogmatic instructors
respond with a relative lack of compassion. And it has
turned some people off. Believe me, I know. I’ve had
several conversations with many of these individuals in
private about such things who did not feel the instructor
was being supportive or compassionate to their process.
We call the organization “Healing Tao”, and my personal
view is that the word “healing” should imply a holistic
approach, not a cute word for Tao meditation practices
to attract people. Granted, Healing Tao instructors
can’t be counselors, psychiatrists, medical doctors, etc.
all rolled into one, but some support beyond just
teaching practices I think should be given.

>>>As I mentioned what you call friction, I can call
>>>”The Excitement for Life”, “The passion to live life”,
>>>”the drive to engage in life” and use it in a variety
>>>of ways. Its interesting, at some time in our lives
>>>we will wish to have this friction again, longing
>>>for this energy or passion for living life, for
>>>being in love with life. This friction, this life force
>>>is part of the Tao, we unite with it and use this force
>>>in our alchemical formulas. We use it in living our lives.
>>>We as taoist alchemist are in a small minority,
>>>our understanding and life cultivation is not shared
>>>by many, we look at this “friction” as life force,
>>>as the cosmic life force inside us and the raw material
>>>to build our spiritual unfolding. This sexual energy,
>>>life force, friction is guiding or driving us to spiritual
>>>cultivation, The life force is natural, the friction or itch
>>>is natural, the drive for sex or sexual pleasure is natural,
>>>how we label this, how we define what this means is not natural.
>>>A Christian views it one way, a tantra practitioner another,
>>>these are human made views. Education is key, in the healing tao
>>>there is much about this, if we were educated from childhood
>>>in this way we would have a good chance at having an entirely
>>>different view and experience of this.

On these comments, I think I agree pretty much in full.

Happy Valentines Day to you too 🙂
Steven

Good exchange with Bagua.

Personally I think it’s worth remembering that our sexualities begin sooner than most think or can remember. (Freud wasn’t wrong about everything.)

The upshot: sexual judgments and beliefs inside the self are extremely subconscious in the vast majority of people. Strain or awkwardness occurs because these judgments, ‘shoulds’, etc. haven’t all been examined. There tend to be quite a few of them. But they can all be resolved, and issues about ‘self-image’ (which essentially involve treating oneself as an object rather than a divine process) never stand in the way of the truth once it has been found. We get these judgments from the groupmind but no-one can stop us changing them.

The constant energetic exchanges we have with others are often sexual in nature. People are fully sexually aware in social situations, and the sexual is often about power on the social ladder, primates being what they are. However, people also respond to the energy of comfort-with-truth inside a person. Frankness is appreciated.

Things like this:

<>

… don’t seem automatically tense to me. Link below to a brief Saida Desilets interview in which she talks of public arousal as a gift to be transmuted, which is how I think of it too. Sexual behaviour occurs on a number of levels, and people are subsconsciously aware of them all the time I think. Just because things are not stated overtly, I wouldn’t conclude people are unaware of them.

Saida Desilets

I don’t see how “the truth” is separate from “the self” or emotions??? Cultivation adds clarity to the being that we are which is in process. If we are not feelng we are where we should be, then cultivation adds clarity to that direction we should go. Since we are not separate from the whole, how can we dwell on its “purity”, when it is what we are?

I think the key is not to get dragged down by negative emotions, but to recognize them, accept them and move on.