The bridge to heaven on earth

And I’d add that like Michael says, *only* Buddhism really takes thus ultra-extremist attitude. So yeah certainly Taoism, but also just about anything else could be interesting to me. I mean we all find things in out-of-the-way places don’t we?

That’s the irony – this is still really just a war of words. Like you say, if people weren’t trying too hard to be intellectual there really would be very little argument. Particularly ironic considering it comes from people who say they are transcending intellect!

I agree with you 1000%. The whole Buddhist emphasis on ‘life as suffering’ is *so* cynical and negative to me. It totally misses what life for humans on earth could be, if we bring back and apply great wisdom from our travels into other places, instead of advocating escaping into them permanently.

love NN

Hi Wendy,

I think you have misunderstood me. I didn’t say that the Buddhist role was that there is no such difference between man and woman. On the jing level, there is obviously a difference. On the shen, level, there is no difference. Have you ever heard of a female yuan shen or a male yuan shen?

You are not running away from a dual state by going to emptiness. Testosterone can make a man aggressive, stubborn, etc. Estrogen has its characteristics. That’s all ego. It is not our original nature. Read Tao Te Ching once more please.

Fajin

Nope Fajin I’m not buying it. It is not illusory and it is not false if a man kills another man. It is real. It is only a mistake because it is real. If it were illusory it would be meaningless. If all here were illusory there would be no difference between loving and hating.

Why keep the body alive if it false or illusory?

Is it a mistake to be born in a human body?

Is it a mistake that the Tao invented the human body?

Is physical existence a bad thing, that we must learn to escape?

No!

NN

>>The illusion is that we don’t see things as they are. If we did, we would have no need for killing someone else.<<

– and in that case, we would see what was actually there and real! Yes?

And tell me, *who* would see it?

The ego that's who! Guided from elsewhere, informed with new understanding, but the ego nonetheless. The same old physical body, the same old emotions, the same old senses. But with new things attached.

The self not gone, not got rid of, never false, but renewed and transformed.

Still you. Not 'not-you'.

Yes?

NN

Thanks Wendy for putting it so succinctly and speaking from your heart. The truth is religion usually does have a gender, even when it tries hard not to.

It is also why I feel Buddhism in general to be male Old Boy religion, even though they don’t put any male god on the throne. They put the formeless on the throne, which is a subtle way of de-throning the physical and the female role in birthing physical form. Even though Chinese Chan has softened and feminized Buddhism (we can thank them for Kuan Yin as cross-dressing male tiben god), in China and Japan it is clearly patriarchal, run by men trying to discipline their desire nature, which arises from having a body.

Many taoists are also patriarchal, you see it in the elevation of True Yang over Evil Yin in many wirters.
But I consider this to be a degeneration of early Taoism, often due to women-hating influence of Confucianism.

I am always appreciating your penetrating Great Yin presence on this forum.

Michael

———–
original post;

I find this particular discussion THE most important reason why I am attracted to Daoism instead of Buddhism. As a non-intellectual female (meaning I don’t read books that I can quote or find ‘evidence’ for discussion) I find it very difficult to express the ‘feeling’, but let me try:

Like Fajin states there is no difference between man and woman. I say, thank god there is a huge difference between man and woman but one that brings a brilliant dynamic, and the more I understand myself the more I appreciate the male and the more I feel the posibilities of these two polarities. I don’t want to erase myself as a ‘woman’ I want to enhance it. Like two forces bursting into a third one, one with enormous creative potential.

For that there has to be a bridge between these two and let me state that maybe in the past that bridge was not available because of cultural reasons. For thousands of years men (yang) and women (yin) stood on the other side of the bridge and could not understand each other resulting in pain and war.
Why are we created in a dual state, to learn and to create, we can create far more… This dual state is a possibility not a punishment. One I don’t want to run away from into emptiness.

I agree with Nnonnth, I feel that the integration will bring heaven on earth instead of leaving the ego-self and rushing to nirvana.
Otherwise why is it despite all the effort of religions the world is still a giant mess; why doing all the effort to reach nirvana and then what? Nothing.
Buddhist state that they want to help others to leave the wheel of karma, why are we still turning that wheel despite thousands of years of practice?

Michael is making a joke.
Kuan Yin is a male, it is the female aspect of male. I tried telling a few people this and stopped after a few times, their attachement to Kuan Yin being a female was so strong they got angry with me.