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I quess one thing you can say for Chia is that he decided to go ahead and step into the arena and make mistakes. He opened up the feild and helped wake people up to the fact that eastern arts are not just about “mechanics of the body” and helped move people beyond what was common for a long time with Japanese based arts where there was a kind of vague emphasis on the mysterious hara as the centre of power.
Many people are angry with Chia, including the teacher who introduced me to energy arts, who has had to treat several men who messed up their sexual functioning using Chia’s books it seems (I don’t know the details). Many feel the emphasis on sexual practice to be unnecessarily misleading.
He has started people on their way too though, and many of those have become accomplished adepts in a positive sense.
Everyone who decides to “go public” takes a risk in this sense, and come to think of it they ought to be prepared to defend themselves if need be.
We all have a right to be critical and to say our peice, in a free society, which is how I like it and why I like this forum, and that means learning how to take a punch as well, or not be where the punch is aimed at, if you have decided to play the public game.Quote:
“For instance I was on that Meditaiton Expert site and I was reading
and article on why you should not spin your chakras or run the orbit.
I TOTALLY DISAGREE.
Though there is some interesting stuff on that site.
But I just think of a beginner reading that garbage and thinking its like
totally true.”Danny, “that garbage” makes up the teachings in a number of Buddhist schools that produced hundreds of enlightened masters.
Just like Kundalini Yoga can be considered ‘extreme’ Yoga. Taoist energy meditations are ‘extreme’ meditation. When you get it right, something happens, energy happens, and it can hurt or heal.
Many of us work without regular contact with teachers. That would simply be forbidden or impossible in the past. I assume people who have worked directly under Chia or one of his responsible teachers side step most of the problems and advance way quicker then the book reader.
Studying Aikido, I’d see books breaking down a throw into 8 pictures. We’d spend hours, even days working on what might be shown in one split second picture. Even sitting properly was assumed to take months of practice.
Books can be good. A seminar with a master is great. Regular practice under a quality teacher is priceless.
Peace
Michael
Trip,
Clearly you’ve received mostly benefit from Chia-studies, and i respect that.
To the degree that attempts to clarify Tao principles become personal attacks, this whole conversation becomes (exponentially) counter-productive, imho. Distinguishing the two is often difficult, both for the person talking and for the one listening.
For me, basically, this is not about attacking nor defending Chia, nor myself, nor any other. Its about clarification for our own and others’ benefit. We all chip away at it, every one of us with mixed results.
I think that the basic Teacher Myth (that they always say and do all the right things)… isn’t humble to the complexity and variety of individuals and their paths (that one person might possibly say/write the right thing for everyone), and is an unintentionally cruel toward the human limitations of any teacher. Even in the best-case scenario of.. If a teacher is enlightened, their utterly simple presence is a pure blessing… but as soon as it comes down to words (and/or other particulars), its immediately a dicey situation (though diminished by their presence behind the words).
(I know that i haven’t responded directly to your points; know that i’ve read and considered your post a number of times.)
Keith
i got same vibe from pantanjali sutras, vivekananda translation
did you read itPerhaps you could quote a few wisdom-teaching passages from the “Tan Tien Chi Kung” book that address:
No-self. How the deep-center of the tan tien relates to Emptiness, Light. Specifics of how that is applied in practice.It was my basic contention in my original post that the essential wisdom-teachings are of very minor emphasis (some might say, nearly missing entirely) from books listed with Chia as author. Certainly I only browsed the book at the bookstore, a point that is fair game for the criticism that i missed much in that book. If the above point was adequately addressed in the book, then my basic contention is – to that degree – mistaken. (And happily!!! mistaken.)
If its missing, however, then… i suggest that there’s goodies for everyone in clarifying this area.
(This isn’t me talking, like i made up this idea or anything. This is in every classic eastern philosophy book ever written. I can’t even stay on my little chetlen-pony, for the thundering hooves of the Great Herd o’ Heavies who wrote All Those Classics.)> (And happily!!! mistaken.) >
Oops. Meaning, i’ll happily!!! admit that i was mistaken. Really happily.
Could you provide page references to your quotes; i’d go out and buy the book and follow along, be glad to get clear past my issue with the initial poor writing on the first few pages. (If you can show me that such teachings are actually in the book.)
Here’s my two cents worth:
First, Chia, in person at least, has always been a pretty humble guy. Yeah, people call him Master but he readily admits that he’s just seeking and trying to live up to what he was taught (and has said so much in each workshop I’ve taken with him). In my personal experience this is in marked contrast to Michael Winn, who often has an insufferable ego and regularly — in person and in text — makes outrageous claims about his own personal knowledge and power.
I think the minute you write a book or put out a video you’ve diluted a practice. Chia started doing both, and running workshops, because his students convinced him to. I don’t think he’s particularly money hungry. And I do think his books, etc. have done good in spreading knowledge of these practices. But certainly they can not compare to personal instruction. (By the way, I also find the constant in your face huckstering and puffery of Winn and even Bodri to be more offensive than Chia’s somewhat quaint and inept marketing efforts.)
Regarding sex, I don’t think Chia emphasizes the sexual practices too much. I think WE DO. We over emphasize them and then blame Chia because we dont have a balanced practice.
Regarding Chia’s emphasis on “sensation” rather than “neutral principles” — it’s a somewhat accurate observation but unlike Keith I’m not convinced it’s a negative. You have to find a way “in”, and guys like Chia and Bodri have found different ways. I suspect that Chia’s practices are much closer to traditional shamanistic daoism than a guy like Bodri’s, because Bodri starts from Buddhism, not shamanism. Winn, in my opinion, keeps drifting farther and farther away from both traditions. He stays away from Buddhism (and any sort of empty mind meditation) but does emphasize other more “earth centered” and “neutral” aspects of the practices (while melding them with a lot of new age viewpoints and stuff he seems to have made up out of whole cloth). This isnt a criticism of Winn. I think hes coming up with some important interpretations. Its just an observation.
The point here is they are all, more or less, trying to get to the same thing: the generation, transformation and circulation of energy. Frankly, I find Chia’s methods to be the most accessible. They are the easiest for me to “do” and “feel” and it is from those initial (rough and ignorant) experiences that I find a way in to the mystic. If sitting in zazen (Bodri) is a better way in for you, or if thinking about the chi field, shapeshifting and vibration frequencies (Winn) works better, go for it.
Lastly, about tan tien chi kung, etc., Like Keith I haven’t read the book. I do know in Iron Shirt Chia constantly cautions to be careful. I also think again — we are often unfair to Chia on this board. For instance, Bodri the current darling of this community has got a nine bottled wind practice which is quite similar to iron shirt “packing”. Indeed, I’ve been doing it and I think I’m packing more air in than when I tried Iron Shirt (and have even scared myself a few times). Like Chia, Bodri says “don’t strain yourself”, but like Chia — he’s also promoting a powerful and potentially dangerous practice. No one here is taking Bodri to task for casually circulating a practice that might be harmful if not done right.
I think the bottom line on Chia (and Bodri and Winn) is that they are each doing their best to explain practices that work for THEM in the language that THEY BEST UNDERSTAND. I think that’s a noble effort and, despite my considerable reservations about all three men, I applaud them for it.
spyrelx
I find chi spirals to be very beneficial in practicing Alchemy.
But hey, if you want to believe everything you read,
then go right ahead.For me its about what I experiece and what is effective.
I am sure Daoist have reached Enlightenment running the
Microcosmic and Spinning there Chakras too.So what does that prove???
Really its just about see what works for you, and
not really down playing any technique but looking at it
from an essential and neutral perspective.Look all I am saying is when someone makes outlandish
comments like what should not be done and stuff,
just be on the look out that your Not Naively sucked
into a false perception that could lag you down for a while.Erase Garbage if you dont like it.
Whatever!
I think that a little investigation into Glenn Morris could clear up TREMENDOUS amounts of this stuff thats being discussed here.He has been able to clear up many things for me, help me through my recent problem, and explains quite clearly EVERYTHING thats being discussed here.I would absolutely suggest his three books, and persoanlly I find them indispensable and would be REALLY lost without them.
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