The Four Denials of Buddhism – and an unspoken 5th?

Awareness is not enough for me, I need to inter-act and experience the physical as an active willing participant

>>why not bring the original self into the categorizing intellect, and integrate them together?<<

*They are already integrated together. One can ONLY experience true nature by stilling the mind. So any ideas of doing anything with the original self are best abandoned.

>>Only yuan shen has this knowledge, it is the real knowledge of our Original Spirit carried on though many, many past lifetimes which is infinately wiser than our intellectual mind (ego-self).<<

This true soul is called Tiphareth in Kabbalah. It is not the Greater Self, it is the True Individual Self. It is *certainly* not empty – how could it be if it contains all this knowledge of past lifetimes? It is simply – ourselves as we are meant to be, rich in knowledge and understanding. It is IN NO SENSE AT ALL a *cancellation* of self, but a great enrichment thereof! So why say that the self disappears?

The lower parts of the self have to be *joined to it* not *abandoned in favour of it*. The latter would be nonsensical; as long as one is in a body, the rational, emotional, astral and physical/animal selves endure. They must join in the party! Telling them they are useless and false is a primitive curtailment, not wisdom!

NN

>>False can mean impermanent or illusory<<

Not in *my* dictionary it can't!

There is a *whole heck of alot of difference* Fajin, between saying 'kill the ego so it is GONE' and 'kill it so it is TRANSFORMED'.

As usual the only lesson to come out of this infernal ruckus of sloppy thinking is that everyone actually agrees with everyone all along.

How completely pointless! NN

The incarnatory ego is impermanent. In your opinion that makes it also false or illusory. That IS what you are saying, isn’t it?

When you call something false or illusory you are implying that it would be better to be without it!

When something is ‘false’ then you are saying that *instead* of looking at the false, you should look at what is TRUE. When something is ‘illusory’ then you are saying that *instead* of looking at the illusion, you should look at the REAL.

Therefore you are saying that ego, as false and illusory as it is, should be got rid of as a mistake, just as you are saying that every breath you take as an incarnated human being is a mistake that takes you further and further from the truth.

None of this is at all correct, not in my opinion, and I think at bottom not in yours either, so why do you keep saying it?

NN

I think it really is just words that we disagree on then. I can’t see how what you just said equates to seeing human desire as meaningless or the self as non-existent, but if you feel that is a good way of saying it then I guess that’s your prerogative! I notice that Bagua now agrees with Michael in principle anyway that you don’t ‘lose the self’ (see thread further up) so I don’t understand that wikipedia entry at all, but what I realize now is it doesn’t matter – only practice will clear these things up.

Talking of which, here’s two more quotes from my own favourite books again. One author I quoted already, another I haven’t yet. What I’m hoping is that you will agree with what they’re writing, but see how it is expressed in a very different non-Buddhist manner?

Anyhoo, nice talking! I really *do* enjoy these chats on here. It’s all knockabout. I was rather depressed once by the comments of a magician I know, who said that whenever he saw people from multiple traditions get together, they would all just want to talk about their own stuff and never try to understand anyone else’s. I really hope you agree with me that cross-cultural and cross-tradition understanding is useful in the modern world, where sectarianism so often threatens to overrule common sense. So these chats do get us somewhere, even if just *where* is hard to see sometimes!

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… in seconds I’m in a new environment. I’m startled and blinded by the intensity of the surrounding light. When I instinctually attempt to shield myself from the radiation, I realise that my body is without form – no arms or legs, just energy…

As I move closer to the light, the sheer power of its radiation is overwhelming. I stop and try to adjust. The energy is so intense it feels like the outer parts of me are being burned away. My entire outer self – my thoughts, fears, and concepts – is being incinerated by the light. At first, I try to shield myself. I surround myself with thoughts only to realize that they too are being burned away by the intensity of the light. Unsure of what to do, I instinctively release and surrender myself to the light. At that moment, the light enters me like a warm liquid permeating my body and mind…

Deep within, I realize that something of extreme importance is before me. There is something else within the column of light. No longer afraid, I have the overpowering desire to know and understand the light. I move closer and try to peer inside. The pure energy and power are beyond words; I feel like I’m standing next to a blazing white sun that radiates waves of light. Somehow I know that I’m safe, and I slowly move forward and touch the light. An intense surge of energy flows through my entire being. I’m flooded with memories of all I’ve been, all I’ve done, all that I am. Everything is now. I’m overwhelmed by the absolute simplicity of it all. For the first time, everything is clear. Everything we are and need is already here. For the first time, I reocognize that we have separated ourselves from our source. How foolish we are…

I now recognise that we as human beings have a natural tendency to attach labels to everything we experience and to filter it according to our physical concepts and beliefs. I wonder if all shapes and forms are really our minds’ interpretation of something else – something that exists beyond all form and substance; something so pure and ethereal as to be beyond our minds’ ability to classify and interpret… Maybe the constant infighting between different religions, faiths and sects would finally come to an end if only we recognized that all religious beliefs are the physical interpretations of mortals. It’s now absolutely clear that God does not care about our personal theology.

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It is necessary that you develop a base within yourself – a base that is not affected by your changing surface emotions or your changing mental states. This base must become a point of contact for your real personality, the essence of the divine which is within you and within everyone else. From this base you can reach out to know your emotions or to quiet your mind. This base, once established, gradually becomes a place of stability, allowing you to develop an internal awareness…

By using this exercise you will eventually begin to understand that there is more to you than just your body, emotions and mind. This may start as an intellectual understanding, but it will become a deep inexpressible truth… Gradually you will find it possible to contact it in your normal waking state. Direct your attention to it… it can make your life easier in many ways. This part of you is the true eternal you.

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– from 'A Century of Spells', by Draja Mickaharic

It seems to me that both of these, in their different ways, are concerned with the Tiphareth self. One is a direct encounter with it, the other is a basic technique for bringing its influence to physical manifestation.

NN