- This topic has 23 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 10 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
There is a real issue: Is someone already “saved”? The “Way of Jesus”
After a long time of studying different Taoist materials, there is a very important topic that I do not see addressed anywhere here. These teachings, and others from Tibet, India, and other places, have very precise maps of the afterlife and soul. Without getting into complicated issues like food and manifest politics, these specific Tao practices, excluding those other traditions, elaborate a path and way to a Heaven which goes hand in hand with the direct teachings, whatever remains of them, of “Jesus”.
With that in mind, the predominant attitude of much of the USA is that they are somehow “already saved” and that others “are not”. This, in and of itself, is worthy of study in at least a half dozen academic domains (pathology, sociology, and others). Regardless, given the similarities of the “Way” of Jesus,
are any of these “yogic” or “chi kung” formulas necessary?
I do not see anyone tackling this issue.
Is a person already “spiritually” saved “through” Jesus? Furthermore, if so, then why are their “Ways” so incongruent with the life of the historical Jesus?
These questions are, here, rhetorical.
That is unless someone feels inspired to tackle them.
Please do not forget the archetypal definitions of inspiration from the Platonic and Socratic traditions.Please also do not forget that it is that same “Jesus” who has discussed an “Eternal” life, a singularity of the “Eye”, and an indwelling spirit.
To the issue:
The practices here, and in Tibet, create a bridge across those dimensions in question.
In other words, under the name “Reunion of Heaven and Earth”, there is a real point. Is this solely for a “yogic” aspirant?
In no vague terms,
-there is a biological soul
-there is a pre-existent “Heaven”
-there is a “psychic” continuum which connects souls, lives, dreams, and those other “dimensions”If so many people are “saved” already, then why is there so much isolation, ignorance, regurgitation, depression, etc.? For many, the answer is that they just do not know.
It is because there is a gap.
It is clear that an “archetypal” mental salvation through the idea of “Jesus” may serve a real purpose at death,
but it does not truly “reconnect” the living being to be an active part of those other levels of existence.
In short, the various techniques are to bridge a divide at the core of our existence that, essentially, answers the issues of self and soul through true, direct psychic feedback.
This is not sitting in a cave. It is becoming aware of energies and connections which work behind the scenes all of the time and, furthermore, integrating them into life, culture, technology, medicine, etc.
Furthermore, this connection elucidates why people like the historical Jesus would walk their “Way” – a way genuinely ignored to the point of near self-nullification by a vast number of adherents.
There is a real biological dimension which houses “Souls” and can be integrated into real technology which facilitates space migration and authentic, CNS based, expansions in consciousness.
Saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
-ESV: Book of Revelation 7:38The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the 144,000 are the only ones who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and as such believe the Bride is another term among many to refer to the 144,000 who will be allowed to enter.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_of_Christ#144.2C000_anointedAn escapegoat is a person or animal which takes on the sins of others, or is unfairly blamed for problems. The concept comes originally from Leviticus, in which a goat is designated to be cast into the desert with the sins of the community. Other ancient societies had similar practices. In psychology and sociology, the practice of selecting someone as a scapegoat has led to the concept of scapegoating.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScapegoatIn Christian theology, the Imitation of Christ is the practice of following the example of Jesus.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imitation_of_ChristLamb of God (Greek: ἀμνὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, amnos tou theou; Latin: Agnus Dei) is a title for Jesus that appears in the Gospel of John. It appears at John 1:29, where John the Baptist sees Jesus and exclaims, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_GodFrom 1932, it was taught that the “little flock” of 144,000 would not be the only people to survive Armageddon. Rutherford explained that in addition to the 144,000 “anointed” who would be resurrectedor transferred at deathto live in heaven to rule over earth with Christ, a separate class of members, the “great multitude,” would live in a paradise restored on earth; from 1935, new converts to the movement were considered part of that class. By the mid-1930s, the timing of the beginning of Christ’s presence (Greek: parousía), his enthronement as king, and the start of the “last days” were each moved to 1914…
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses#Reorganization_.281917.E2.80.931942.29Sorry for my broken English.
…it is clear that an “archetypal” mental salvation through the idea of “Jesus” may serve a real purpose at death, but it does not truly “reconnect” the living being to be an active part of those other levels of existence…
Yes, but this is actualized when one is sacrificed as Jesus by violent sinners and then one can become, although in lesser form, a Lamb of God (if there still are vacant places).
HOWDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBK4614SQ-8
This last statement:
“Yes, but this is actualized when one is sacrificed as Jesus by violent sinners and then one can become, although in lesser form, a Lamb of God (if there still are vacant places). ”
This seems possibly bitter or sarcastic but, nevertheless, would still fall under physical death.
The point stated beforehand was to become a living integrand within the “Larger” universe and “Higher” mind…
Do you think that possibly this “salvation state” might be like a “universal” spiritual consciousness made manifest within ubiquitin?
Regardless, that “solar” salvation space… where is the deep germination-lust-desire?
Surely it calls the dead back to life…~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ubiquitin regulates protein transport between membrane compartments by serving as a sorting signal on protein cargo and by controlling the activity of trafficking machinery.
Monoubiquitin attached to integral plasma membrane proteins or to associated transport modifiers serves as a regulated signal for internalization into the endocytic pathway.
Similarly, monoubiquitin attached to biosynthetic and endocytic membrane proteins is a signal for sorting of cargo into vesicles that bud into the late endosome lumen for delivery into the lysosome.
Ubiquitination of trans-acting endocytic proteins is also required for transport, and key endocytic proteins are modified by monoubiquitin. Regulatory enzymes of the ubiquitination machinery, ubiquitin ligases, control the timing and specificity of plasma membrane protein downregulation in such diverse biological processes as cell fate specification and neurotransmission. Monoubiquitin signals appended by these ligases are recognized by endocytic proteins carrying ubiquitin-binding motifs, including UBA, UEV, UIM, and CUE domains. The UIM proteins epsins and Hrs are excellent candidates for adaptors that link ubiquitinated cargo to the clathrin-based sorting machinery at appropriate regions of the endosomal or plasma membranes.
Other ubiquitin-binding proteins also play crucial roles in cargo transport, although in most cases the role of ubiquitin-binding is not defined. Ubiquitin-binding proteins such as epsins, Hrs, and Vps9 are monoubiquitinated, indicating the general nature of ubiquitin regulation in endocytosis and suggesting new models to explain how recognition of monoubiquitin signals may be regulated.”
Regulation of membrane protein transport by ubiquitin and ubiquitin-binding proteins.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14570567From his carnival days, LaVey knew how contrived visual puzzles like mystery spots were constructed to use angles and false perspectives to fool the eye and …
-BLANCHE BARTON, The Secret Life of a SatanistThe year before he died, Cardano wrote an autobiography entitled The Book of My Life. It is an electrifying read and details his sexual conquests, his illnesses, his tragedies and-perhaps most enlightening of all-his modus operanti for scientific discovery. Cardano seems to have taken great delight in the assumption that this breakthroughs came from rational sources. ‘This form of knowledge is pleasing to the erudite, for they think it proceeds from great learning and practice, and on this account very many have judged me to be deeply devoted to study and possessed of a good memory when nothing is less true,’ he wrote.
The truth-in Cardano’s eyes, at least-is that his source was ‘the ministrations of my attendant spirit’. He was visited by familiar spirits, angels and demons, and took advice from them: ‘I have less rarely arrived at comprehension by a skilful treatment than I have been aided on many occasions by spiritual insight’. Cardano’s father, son and cousin were all certified lunatics. Cardano called himself lunatic. Perhaps we too would question his sanity. But the fact is that invisible, intagible, irrational sources can be an incredibly powerful source of discovery.
-MICHAEL BROOKS, Free RadicalsYou are bogging down over nothing and sounding more like you are schitzo.
-http://forum.healingdao.com/practice/message/26259/Although not as advanced as in yoga, there is long tradition of asceticism and contemplation in Christianity, so there is not any reason to seriously despise or doubt that some Christians have genuine living experience with the other side while still alive.
It would seem that what takes places after physical death is experienced already earlier in lesser and shadowy way as dream life and sleep.
On this forum I have seen somebody to complain about his insomnia. When this has been coupled with realization that it might have to do with experiments in meditation, conclusion is that I don’t want to continue because I prefer to slumber.
In that schitzos have nasty situation that they don’t know how to stop their subjection and choose their direction.
HOWDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYn5prL3MkQ
This statement amounts to more bedazzling numb-nuttedness:
“Although not as advanced as in yoga, there is long tradition of asceticism and contemplation in Christianity, so there is not any reason to seriously despise or doubt that some Christians have genuine living experience with the other side while still alive.”
There was an explicit statement above of “not sitting in a cave”…
There are all sorts of inane methods of near death trauma. There was also a statement above about “a living being being an active part”…not “shadowy” dream death…
which is back to the point of:
—> becoming a living integrand w/in a “Larger Universe” & “Higher Mind” Why does the actual life so often seem so UN-saved ? <—
your comment is I think correct, that faith alone is not integrated with real experience on levels of breath, body, and emotions. I thought perhaps you might like some of what the guy in the video (link below) says on the topic in terms of historical western alchemy. Of course this is all inspirational and seeing connections; one needs the practical methods with which you are now familiar. A certain familiarity with western alchemy is good to have for understanding the cultural contexts and history we encounter. The Taoist alchemy methods have the advantage of practical application – having the earth in the middle as balancing the cross of the other phases (elements) makes all the difference. If this still addresses nothing for you please ignore.
Video starts 10 minutes into talk.The faith-based story that Christians believe is that Jesus was God-incarnate, and he died on the cross as a way to absorb all sins from all people who believed with full faith that he is the human incarnation of God. Thus, to a Christian, how they live their life is irrelevant, and need not be the least bit similar to how Jesus lived his life. All they need do is to believe that Jesus was God-incarnate in human form and that this belief alone will enable them to shed their sins onto Jesus’ image as a proxy, and this will cause them to be saved.
If this Christian belief is correct, and a Christian believes in Jesus in this way in his heart, then he is saved. End of story. In this case, qigong/alchemy can neither help nor harm the person spiritually, because the afterlife is determined solely by the former Christian-based question. The qigong/alchemy would only have an effect for the quality of the life on earth.
If the Christian belief is correct, and the Christian fails in his whole-heartedness, then he is not saved. If he is doing qigong/alchemy, it then provides another means for afterlife continuation (provided of course that the alchemy story is correct). It then becomes a “fall-back plan”, in case the Christian “saving” doesn’t work out. I’ve heard Master Chia mention this himself, as his own interpretation. At least at one point–and I think perhaps still true–Master Chia said he is both Christian and Daoist. Since no Christian could ever be entirely certain that they have met the “saving” qualifications, this “fall-back plan” idea is the most likely perspective of a Christian who becomes attracted to the Daoist teachings, assuming that they just didn’t relegate the Daoist teachings to benefiting health/vitality/emotional well-being, which I suspect many do.
This “fall-back plan” idea also holds for the Christian, should it turn out to be true that their faith is false, and the Christian story doesn’t hold up. Then, even if their faith-based spiritual beliefs are all fairy tales, they still have a fall-back plan.
For the non-Christian, the question here is entirely irrelevant. They certainly won’t be saved if the Christian story is false, nor will they be saved if it is true (as they don’t meet the criteria for “saving”). The only question that exists for the non-Christian is whether the Daoist story is correct, and how devoted they are to the practice in the event that it is true.
As to your question about why the beliefs and behaviors of Christians don’t match the actual behavior of Jesus, it relates to the faith-based story that Christians believe, and how this story evolved from Jesus’ time to the modern-day. This came about after interpretations of the writings of Christ by Paul (writer of much of the New Testament) and by the early Christian Church. One could get into a great theological debate as to whether or not this is a pollution of the message that Jesus was trying to convey. After all, Jesus rallied against the mindless intermediary rules/laws of the Pharisees and the laws of the early church, and then modern Christianity has turned Jesus himself into the ultimate intermediary. But this is an entirely separate conversation, left more for Christians to unravel, and not so much a Healing Tao question.
In total–amongst all possibilities–I see no conflict between the Healing Tao path and the Christian one. Even in the case where the Christian does end being saved through the means of the Christian faith, then they still have the promise of a healthy/vibrant/stress-reduced life via Healing Tao practices, and the Healing Tao practices in this case don’t interfere in their “saved status” since that is only determined by a non-Healing Tao question.
Qi,
StevenSteven,
I love your mathematician’s take on the issue of Christian theology….the only thing that is missing is a calculation of the odds of being saved if you believe in Jesus….so we can place bets that hopefully will be collected on in the afterlife.OR we can simplify this whole discussion by examining the cosmology that drives the different paths to salvation:
Christian: your soul is filled with sin, and needs to be saved.
Buddhist: there is no soul, that is just the illusion of self.
Taoist: You are born with the spark of a soul, but it must be grown, raised to maturity (sage hood on earth), with the potential for immortality (continue creating in afterlife) if one’s Qi and one’s “de” (virtu, integrity, spiritual power) is high enough.
Then there’s also the problem with the many false stories about Jesus’s life. Most biblical historians believe that at most about 10 percent of the bible is historically accurate.
In my story, I love and respect Jesus as a master alchemist, trained in Egyptian temples during his 18 missing years. He NEVER founded a church (error in Steven’s account) nor is there any indication he wanted one founded in his name.
Hope this is relevant. I will be travelling for two days and not jumping back in for a while.
-Michael
I should have said that only a small percent of the NEW TESTAMENT is considered accurate by historians. Most of it wss written 80 to 200 years after Jesus died.
How accurate are passed down stories after 100 years?At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” Yet Saul grew more and more influential and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.
ACTS 9:20-22The Conversion of Saint Paul (or Conversion of Saul), by the Italian painter Caravaggio, is housed in the Odescalchi Balbi Collection of Rome. It is one of at least two paintings by Caravaggio of the same subject, the Conversion of Paul. Another is The Conversion of Saint Paul on the Road to Damascus, in the Cerasi Chapel of Santa Maria del Popolo.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversion_of_Saint_Paul_(Caravaggio)Bhakti (Sanskrit: भक्ति) literally means “attachment, participation, devotion to, fondness for, homage, faith or love, worship, piety to (as a religious principle or means of salvation)”.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BhaktiVirodha Bhakti-“Perverse devotion”; said, for example, of Hiranyakashipu, whose hatred of Vishnu was so powerful that he remembered Him constantly.
-ROBERT E. SVOBODA, Aghora II: KundaliniAccording to the account in Acts, it took place on the road to Damascus, where he reported having experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus. The account says that “he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” Saul replied, “Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”[Acts 9:4-5] According to the account in Acts 9:122, he was blinded for three days and had to be led into Damascus by the hand. During these three days, Saul took no food or water and spent his time in prayer to God. When Ananias of Damascus arrived, he laid his hands on him and said: “Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.”[Acts 9:17] His sight was restored, he got up and was baptized.[Acts 9:18] This story occurs only in Acts, not in the Pauline epistles.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle#ConversionAlthough these kind of narratives are not anyway reliable there is still some kind of logic behind.
Interesting is this shift from virodha bhakti to pure bhakti in Paul’s case.
HOWDY
https://i2.wp.com/www.artbible.info/images/saulus_grt.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIlHeYJBjng
>>>Steven,
>>>I love your mathematician’s take on the
>>>issue of Christian theology….🙂
In my view, it is the only proper way to analyze it. Faith-based belief, by its nature, is devotion to something that is an unprovable idea during human life. Until one dies, any discussion of what occurs after death is mere speculation. Proclaimed certainty about an idea, regardless of the source, is blind-devotion without any direct first-hand evidence . . . all evidence is anecdotal and second-hand from some other authority.
>>>the only thing that is missing is a
>>>calculation of the odds of being saved
>>>if you believe in Jesus….so we can
>>>place bets that hopefully will be
>>>collected on in the afterlife.I assume you are, of-course, being facetious.
But, if not, it is impossible to discuss this without statistical results, which could only be gathered if one had already died, and it turned out that life did indeed continue past death for the data gatherer. Then, however, the data gatherer is out-of-this-realm, and the results unlikely shareable with anyone here. Thus such odds are decidedly unknown and unknowable.>>>OR we can simplify this whole discussion
>>>by examining the cosmology that drives the different paths to salvation:
>>>Christian: your soul is filled with sin, and needs to be saved.
>>>Buddhist: there is no soul, that is just the illusion of self.
>>>Taoist: You are born with the spark of a soul,
>>>but it must be grown, raised to maturity
>>>(sage hood on earth), with the potential for
>>>immortality (continue creating in afterlife)
>>>if one’s Qi and one’s “de” (virtu, integrity,
>>>spiritual power) is high enough.Yes, this is a good way to highlight the differences if you are only one of these. I stopped short on this because the implicit assumption in the discussion was that somebody was both. If someone is a non-Christian, the whole discussion about saving is irrelevant. And in this case, the discussion–as you say–is very simple. One need only say that the beliefs are different, end of story. I was trying to answer the question without putting a particular bias on it. [although quite separately, I have my own personal strong opinions on the issue, based on my experience]
>>>Then there’s also the problem with the
>>>many false stories about Jesus’s life.
>>>Most biblical historians believe that
>>>at most about 10 percent of the bible
>>>is historically accurate.This is likely true as the most of the New Testament was written hundreds of years after the life of Jesus.
>>>In my story, I love and respect Jesus
>>>as a master alchemist, trained in
>>>Egyptian temples during his 18 missing years.This would be a great story if true.
The only problem with it, is if true, why did he not then teach the alchemy methods that he would have learned to people? Instead, his teachings were more like that of the Buddha, where he gave the people his “enlightened view” of things.>>>He NEVER founded a church (error in Steven’s account)
>>>nor is there any indication he wanted one founded in his name.You misunderstood me.
When I said Jesus rallied against the early church, I was referring to the archaic version of Judaism and the religion of the Pharisees, which was in existence during the time of Jesus. It wasn’t the modern church, as we know it today, but there were religious officials that interpreted old Testament scriptures for people who acted as if they had divine authority. The Christian church didn’t arise until a few hundred years later, based on those that came after Paul. Christianity is more Paulism than Jesus-ism.
S
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.