To Max & the board

[wkmbmn]

Hi,
Wrt to the debate on Buddhism Vs Taoism, it might not be the whole debate but I believe that Mr Hawkins has illustrated part of the argument beautifully in his book “Transcending the levels of consciousness”. From page 219 onwards.
My interest at this point is to mention the book because I find it interesting. Of course there will be questions, I can try to answer but better to read the original rather than accept my poorly rehashed understanding. I will also use comments from the bk to illustrate pts but do not want to copy out huge chunks, therefore if anybody wants to split hairs and semantics that is their choice. My aim is to explain the general gist of the idea.
Pls also bear in mind that I have read some posts on this board but not all of them and basically know nothing about Buddhism so I may have got this totally wrong.

One key pt: The Understanding of a concept/ idea will be different to different people depending of their level of understanding.

In mentioning Mr Hawkins work previously I forgot to mention his scale was based upon a log scale.

Calibration Level 400: Pg 219

“Intelligence & rationality rise to the forefront when emotionalism of the lower levels is transcended.”….. ”This is the level of science, medicine and generally increased capacity for rationality, conceptualisation & comprehension. Thus, knowledge & education are highly valued. Understanding of information & logic are the hallmarks of level 400. This is the level of Nobel prize winners, great statesmen, Supreme Court Justices, Einstein, Freud & many others.”……..”at this level it is easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees, to become infatuated with concepts & theories…”

Pg 221.. “All philosophical arguments sound convincing on their own. Although Reason is highly effective in a technical world where the methodologies of logic dominate, Reason itself paradoxically, is the major block to reaching higher consciousness because it attracts identification of the self as mind. Transcending this level is relatively uncommon in our society as it requires a shift of paradigm from the descriptive to the subjective and experiential”
“The consciousness levels of the 400s represent the emergence of the capacity to synthesis & utilise lineaer abstractions & symbols of great complexity & to extract significance & meaning as well as predictive verification. Intelligence comprehends hierarchical fields of organisational rank & discerns value to reliability, implied worth or significance. It stratifies prioritisation via sequence to classification systems that are analogous to paradigm, domain, category, class, species, subspecies, genus & then finally, specific example. …. Although the content is linear, its overall direction & source of functioning are non-linear”.

Pg 230.. “The intellect accumulates, sorts, processes & assimilates spiritual & religious information. It seems to be a paradox that at the same time, it can become a limitation to the evolution to a higher consciousness level, which requires transcending the mind. The limitation of the mind is evidenced by its structure in that the functional ego is linear, dualistic & dominated by the Newton paradigm of causality that..”

“The transition from consciousness level of the 400s to the 500s is a paradigm jump from the mental realm of linear symbols to non-linear subjectivity”

Pg 239 _ Transcending Linear Duality.
“Below consciousness level 200, awareness is dominated by negative emotion, but between 200 & 400 the emotions become progressively positive. Then in the 400s, logic & reason prevail over emotion. There is another major jump at level 500, from emotionalised, conceptual linear content to the predominance of non-linear context. The more powerful fields of consciousness levels 500 & up reprioritise meaning, significance & value. The move is from what the world considers ‘objective’ to experiential subjectivity as the dominant quality of awareness experience.”

Pg 240
“Level 500 indicates that the subjective condition of love has now become a not only significant but also dominant, not just a feeling & emotion, but as a guiding principle”

The above comments may be the best choice to illustrate my pt but the argument I believe is not about Taoism Vs Buddhism. Although that does muddy the waters, the argument I see is that of one pt of view just before the shift and one pt of view just after the shift, with both camps using information specific to their own school of thought to support their view.

Hawkins may be right he may be wrong I may also be wrong in my understanding of the situation but imo it just seems to fit the dynamics of the debate.

Buy the book & read for yourself, just in case anybody asks I have no affiliation with Mr Hawkins nor do I have any financial gain from the book. I may though have watched a rerun of the Viktor Kiam ? tv advert.

Not sure at all but in the end decided to post as I would learn something by the replies.

Brian

From His Website

Sir David R. Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D is a nationally renowned psychiatrist, physician, researcher, and lecturer. He co-authored Orthomolecular Psychiatry with Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling that helped revolutionize psychiatry.

His national television appearances include The MacNeil/Lehrer News Hour, The Barbara Walters Show, and The Today Show. Winner of the Huxley Award, knighted by the Danish Crown, nominated for the Templeton Prize and honored in the East with the title “Tae Ryoung Sun Kak Tosa” (Foremost Teacher of the Way to Enlightenment), Dr. Hawkins’ honors are vast. His background is detailed in Who’s Who in America and Who’s Who in the World and his work has been acclaimed by many world leaders and Nobelists, including Mother Teresa.

Dr. Hawkins has lectured at the Universities of Argentina, Westminster Abbey, Notre Dame, Stanford, Harvard, and the Oxford Forum. In addition, he has been an advisor to Catholic, Protestant and Buddhist monasteries. He has conferred with foreign governments on international diplomacy and has been instrumental in resolving long-standing conflicts that were major threats to world peace.

He is the author of the best-selling trilogy, “Power vs. Force” (Published in 17 languages), “The Eye of the I,” and “I: Reality and Subjectivity.”

Dr. Hawkins is an internationally known spiritual teacher, author, and speaker on the subject of advanced spiritual states, consciousness research, and the Realization of the Presence of God as Self.

His published works, as well as recorded lectures, have been widely recognized as unique in that a very advanced state of spiritual awareness occurred in an individual with a scientific and clinical background who was later able to verbalize and explain the unusual phenomenon in a manner that is clear and comprehensible.

The transition from the normal ego state of mind to its elimination by the Presence is described in the trilogy Power versus Force (1995) which won praise even from Mother Theresa, The Eye of the I (2001), and I: Reality and Subjectivity (2003), which have been translated and are available worldwide in foreign editions. Reviews (such as those on the Internet at amazon.com) have awarded the works with five stars.

The trilogy was preceded by research on the Nature of Consciousness and published as the doctoral dissertation, Qualitative and Quantitative Analysis and Calibration of the Levels of Consciousness (1995), which correlated the seemingly disparate domains of science and spirituality. This was accomplished by the major discovery of a technique that, for the first time in human history, demonstrated a means to discern truth from falsehood.

The importance of the initial work was given recognition by its very favorable and extensive review in Brain/Mind Bulletin and at later presentations such as the International Conference on Science and Consciousness. Many presentations were given to a variety of organizations, spiritual conferences, church groups, nuns, and monks, both nationally and in foreign countries, including the Oxford Forum. In the Far East, Dr. Hawkins is a recognized “Teacher of the Way to Enlightenment.” (Tae Ryoung Sun Kak Dosa”)

In response to his observation that much spiritual truth has been misunderstood over the ages due to lack of explanation, Dr. Hawkins presented monthly seminars provided detailed explanations that are too lengthy to describe in book format. Recordings are available, along with questions and answers that provide additional clarification.

The overall design of this lifetime work is to recontextualize the human experience in terms of the evolution of consciousness and to integrate a comprehension of both mind and spirit as expressions of the innate Divinity that is the substrate and ongoing source of life and Existence. This dedication is signified by the statement “Gloria in Excelsis Deo!” with which his published works begin and end.
Inducted into the 2006 American Psychiatric Association 50-Year Distinguished Life Fellows honor Inducted into the 2006 Orthomolecular Medicine Hall of FameEstablished Devotional Nonduality as a major spiritual pathway and the Science of Consciousness Research Published numerous articles in spiritual periodicals, 1990 – current As appeared on The Today Show, Science, Barbara Walters, the McNeil-Leher News Hour and talk radio shows worldwide Presents lectures and workshops throughout the U.S., along with monthly full-day seminars, 2002 – current Gave annual Landsberg Lecture at the University of California Medical School at San Francisco Listed in Who’s Who in America and Who’s Who in the World Appointed consultant to the Unity School of Religious Studies and post-graduate curriculum, including establishment of the Unity School of Consciousness Studies, 2003Published research on Science of Consciousness in series of books in 14 languagesEstablishment of worldwide independent study groups Nobelists and world leaders accorded recognition in support of world value of research and writings: Dr. Linus Pauling; Mother Theresa; Lee Iacocca; Sam Walton; Bill W. (founder of Alcoholics Anonymous); numerous clergy and businessmen (spirit in business). Consultant to government leaders, South Korea, 2000 Received title “Tae Ryoung Sun Kak Dosa” (Teacher of Enlightenment), Seoul, Korea, 2000 Became a knight of the Sovereign Order of the Hospitaliers of St. John of Jerusalem, which was founded in 1077. This ceremony was officiated by Prince Waldemar of Denmark at the San Anselmo Theological Seminary in 1995. Physicians Recognition Award, American Medical Association, 1992 Elected to Sovereign Order of St. John of Jerusalem (Founded 1077), 1989 Invited to become Commissioner of Mental Health, State of New York, February, 1983 Citation from Medical College of Wisconsin for “Contribution to Medicine” Taught classes on Advaita Published articles with Bill W., cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous Taught classes based on A Course in Miracles Consultant to clergy, cloistered nuns, Episcopal and Catholic dioceses, the Zen Monastery (NYC), and spiritual groups North Nassau Mental Health Center Award for “Dedication to the Alleviation of Human Suffering,” 1978 Huxley Award for “Inestimable Contribution to the Alleviation of Human Suffering,” 1979 Published Orthomolecular Psychiatry with Nobelist Linus Pauling, 1973 Published numerous scientific papers in the American Journal of Psychiatry amongst other fine publications, 1953 – currentFounder and Director, The Mental Health Center (largest practice in New York City), 1958 – 1980 Training Psychoanalysis by Prof. Lionel Oversey, M.D., at Columbia University Psychoanalytic Institute Supervising Psychiatrist, New York State Department of Mental Hygiene, 1957 Awarded Fellowship in Psychiatry, Mt. Sinai Hospital, New York, 1956 Intern, Columbia Hospital, New York School of Psychiatry, 1954 Mosby Book Award for Scholastic Excellence, 1953 Alpha Omega Alpha – National Medical Scholastic Honor Society, 1952

North Nassau Mental Health Center, Inc., 1958
Federation of Mental Health Centers, 1963
North Nassau Clinical Laboratories, 1970
North Nassau Research Division and Laboratories, 1971
An Integrated System for the Care of Schizophrenics, 1971
Academy of Orthomolecular Psychiatry, 1971
Institute for Applied Spiritual Studies, 1980

Schizophrenics Anonymous (Board of Directors; Medical Advisor)
Schizophrenia Foundation of New York State (Incorporator; Director)
Schizophrenia Foundation of Long Island (Board of Directors; Medical Advisor)
Institute for Scientific Communications (Incorporator; Board of Directors)
Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry (Editorial Board)
Journal of Schizophrenia (Editorial Board)
St. George’s Day Activities Center (Medical Advisor)
The Attitudinal Healing Center of Long Island (Board of Directors; Medical Advisor)
Christ Church Day Activities Center (Medical Advisor)
The Masters Gallery of Fine Arts (Co-Director)
Mental Health Fairs
The Gateposts Halfway House (Medical Advisor)
Garfield House (Halfway House)
Day Activities Center of Port Washington (Medical Advisor)
Brunswick House (Alcoholism; Psychiatric Consultant)
New York Association of Holistic Health Centers
Life Support Systems (Board of Directors)
Space Form (Ecologic Communities and Low-Energy Housing)
Became Director Emeritus of the North Nassau Mental Health Center in 1980 and gave up psychiatric practice to spend full time on spiritual research.

American Medical Association (Life Member)
American Psychiatric Association (Life Member)
New York State Medical Society
Nassau County Medical Society
Nassau Physicians Guild
Nassau Academy of Medicine
New York Academy of Science
The American Association for the Advancement of Science
New York State Psychiatric Association
Qualified Psychiatrist, New York State Department of Mental Health
Nassau Psychiatric Society
New York State Clinical Directors Association
American Association of Psychiatric Administrators
Academy of Orthomolecular Psychiatry (Founding President; Chairman of the Board)
International Academy of Preventive Medicine
American Holistic Health Association
The Huxley Institute for Biosocial Research (Board of Directors)
Academy of Religion and Mental Health
New York State Association of the Professions
The Academy of Psychosomatic Medicine
Schizophrenia Foundation of New York State (Board of Directors; Medical Advisor)
The Attitudinal Healing Center of Long Island (Board of Directors; Medical Advisor)
North Nassau Mental Health Center (Director Emeritus)
Medical Society of the Brunswick Hospital (Director of Psychiatric Research)
Attending Staff, Gracie Square Hospital
Youth Consultation Services, Episcopal Dioceses, Long Island (Psychiatric Consultant)
Editorial Board, Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry
Editorial Board, Journal of Schizophrenia
Editorial Board, (Alcoholism), Journal of Psychotherapy
American Schizophrenia Association (Scientific Advisory Board)
National Society for Autistic Children (Professional Advisory Board)
Long Island Council on Alcoholism
The Federation of Mental Health Centers (Co-founder)
American Medical Society on Alcoholism
Arizona Medical Society
Arizona Psychiatric Society
Brunswick House (Director of Research, Alcoholism)
The National Acupuncture Research Society
American Geriatric Society
International Council on Applied Nutrition
The Academy of Preventive Medicine
Canadian Psychiatric Association (Associate Member)
American Society for Psychological Research
Monroe Institute for Applied Science
International Kirlian Research Association
National Council on Alcoholism
The Association for the Advancement of Psychotherapy
The Society for the Study of Addictions
American Institute for Scientific Communications (Co-founder)
International Society for General Semantics
Consultant on Alcoholism, U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare
American Ontoanalytic Association
Consultant, New York Foundling Hospital
New York Paleontological Society
Consultant, Operation Hotline

The First Zen Institute of America, 1960
The Institute for Applied Spiritual Studies (Founder, Chairman), 1983
Institute for Advanced Spiritual Research, Inc. [501© (3) Public Charity], 1983
Sovereign Order, St John of Jerusalem, 1995
Devotional Nonduality Community (Founder, 2003)

[wkmbmn]

Might have got it all wrong, just got a bit
further
Pg 255 “From level 540 upward is the domian of saints, spritual healers
& ADVANCED SPIRITUAL STUDENTS (this board – my captials)

Love to hear your opinions I just don’t know but imo its a cool bk.

(better post on something else before i bore everyone)

Brian

[bagua]

Hi:

It was others that set the discussion: Taoism vs Buddhism. This is something I do not support, I promote the integration of the two, where they are the same. I would like more who share this view to speak up and share their exeperiences and views.

bagua

[wkmbmn]

I gathered you saw few differences, I’m all for more
peace & integration. I simply addressed the post to yourself
since you showed interest in the previous post on Hawkins. I posted
a reply with his website details but it was so long after your questions I did
not know If you had seen it. I suppose I could have asked.

I did not wish to imply any one on the board was actively creating
an arguement.

With the paradigm shift it did explain to me in a way I could understand
why there could be slight differences in approach and wished to share this.

All the best

Brian

[wkmbmn]

Hi Bagua

Words – it’s possible to forget how powerful they are. Maybe discussion or debate would have been better than the word argument in my above post. It did appear too many times. Even just the word conjures up images of heated emotions.
Although the conclusion of my post was integration, was some of the preamble divisive. So if people read the post would they leave with the lasting impression of the preamble that there was conflict where there was not ? and not the intended integration of the conclusion. ?

Is it possible to go back and edit posts.

Maybe I had better post on another subject before a bigger hole is dug.

Brian

[bagua]

Hi Brian:

No need to edit them, and please continue particpating.

I think this forum offers something quite unique, a deep dialogue of people with all kinds of experience, practice and theory with taoism. We are trying to get to some of the crtical issues in the cosmology and alchemy, which I have spent a few decades playing with, as have others here. In the past “masters” just side stepped what we are talking about, kept in ambiguity and most likely, were not capble of expressing them.

Sometimes we challenge the foundation theories, ideas, beliefs and experiences of each other and the exchange can seem like arguing, but most of use have a genuine goal of learning from each other and clarifying the core processes of this universe from a taoist view.

Im feeling the bliss today,

Bagua

[wkmbmn]

Hi Bagua

Words – it’s possible to forget how powerful they are. Maybe discussion or debate would have been better than the word argument in my above post. It did appear too many times. Even just the word conjures up images of heated emotions.
Although the conclusion of my post was integration, was some of the preamble divisive. So if people read the post would they leave with the lasting impression of the preamble that there was conflict where there was not ? and not the intended integration of the conclusion. ?

Is it possible to go back and edit posts.

Maybe I had better post on another subject before a bigger hole is dug.

Brian

[wkmbmn]

Hi Bagua

Words – it’s possible to forget how powerful they are. Maybe discussion or debate would have been better than the word argument in my above post. It did appear too many times. Even just the word conjures up images of heated emotions.
Although the conclusion of my post was integration, was some of the preamble divisive. So if people read the post would they leave with the lasting impression of the preamble that there was conflict where there was not ? and not the intended integration of the conclusion. ?

Is it possible to go back and edit posts.

Maybe I had better post on another subject before a bigger hole is dug.

Brian

[wkmbmn]

Any ideas how I delete these extra posts I have created ?

[wkmbmn]

[wkmbmn]

Hi Bagua,
From reading other peoples stuff, there seems a really nice
group here. Its good to challenge beliefs at times, if nobody ever did we
could go off at a huge tangent.

Re editing – Probably not a good idea. Any reply could then be totally out
of context and misleading.

As to words, sometimes like to maintain an awareness of myself. Words
being the final product of a thought/ emotion. Provides a link to our inner world
and any blocks. The above post of mine on words was kind of an awareness musing.

Brian

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