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I think this is a good topic, we could title it Virtue vs.Ruthlessness.
Noonth is saying Ruthlessness can be someone’s virtue; if its not, they’ll pay for it in time.
I agree this is true, every path has its own virtue, even Dark hides the purest Light within.Ghengis Khan’s hordes murdered millions of innocent peasants who happened to live in the wrong place. You could say he’s evil, or that he just quickened the liberation of the innocents to realization of life beyond death.
But would you support such a leader today? It leads to fallacious assumptions about Might = Right, and promoting this view leads to slowdown in evolutionary spiral and suffering. So while there is no absolute good or evil, there are important relative shades of each.
So I also agree with Swedish dragon point of view: cultivating virtue intentionally, cultivating harmony, is most direct path. Point of all paths extolling the Battle of the Sexes will eventually lead to need to seek harmony after the high cost of warfare is realized. So why not go direct to creating harmony, if possible?
by the way, Noonth, posters on this forum are not required or expected to be card carrying Taoists, if such an entity could even be defined.
m>>Noonth is saying Ruthlessness can be someone’s virtue<< Not sure that's what i AM saying, but have it your way. That's NNONNTH by the way. best NN
Nice Michael
After Nnonnth last contribution to this discussion I could really see clearly that he has a point here. I can see the streangth in such an idea to do what you which if you can “pay” the consecuenses. But it wasn’t easy for me, this opinion don’t seems to come natural for me. It cost me a lot of intellectual work that wasn’t easy for me. I felt a heavy feeling and didn’t really like this opinion. But I can see it as a possible lack in my mental way of thinking and living. I’m sure I also live out this aspects some time without wanting to recognice it, maybe. But I’m also wery much affected by the life of Mahatma Gandhi for instance. So I feel a strong contradiction betwen my opinion and Nnonnth.
I relly like your “every path has its own virtue, even Dark hides the purest Light within.” And I can see the meaning of the negative of not doing beacase you think the thing you want to do isn’t right. There is so wery much power in the way of Nnonnth thinking and we can’t realy not accept it as a possible way.
My deeper question are is this two perspectives possible to intergrate or aren’t they?
In my opinion though ,an answer to Nnonnth, it is reason to pity the men that was used by the white tigress. Isn’t it so as wendy wrote earlier that people living under hard sircumstances are more willing to do thinks they even not feel good about like taking crak for instance? Isn’t such a life a pity? I feel that you wery much admire strenght and despice weaknes
Nnonnth. And maybe this is the reason why you think it’s right to do what you want against weaker people and not pity them. I tink this is a wery dangerous way of life and it’s a way that will create wery much suffering and instability in the society. Is it really necessary to get power from egoistical behavior can’t we get enough power from another way of life.Hello Michael
About leaders: there are no leaders without followers so I guess we get the leaders we deserve. I have been thinking about Adolf Hitler for instance there are shore much of “good” in his way ´. I think he did find for instance symbols of power that the German people needed. And here we can see what a consequenses following power and not good virtues may achive.
The question is what leaders do we the majority of peole deserve?
But reading for instance Theilard de chardin he wrote a lot of the good or evolutionary necessary consequenses of the word war ii. So there we also eventualy have good within bad or evil actions. Nothing is that simple isn’t it.
Not sure if you really followed what I’m saying.
I’m saying to you: what do YOU want to do? Then do it. If you cannot choose wisely you can make a mistake, but to FEAR making a mistake is to paralyse yourself, especially if you are trying to ‘do the right thing’. If a ‘White Tigress’ really *were* this kind of predator constantly she would be making a mistake I expect. Can she correct it, if she senses that she is going wrong? That would be true strength. What does she really WANT, really DESIRE? Is she addicted to her power over men who are worthless except as food? If so – she must pay the price. That is not ‘what should happen’. It is what *happens*. Only the individual person can tell if she is making a mistake. You cannot make a law about it.
Maybe my thinking is somewhat Darwinian. Did you actually ever see two tigers fucking? Oh my goodness watch that sometime. It’s beautiful but it’s not pretty. I do not see this as ‘creating instability’ in feline society! Look at nature carefully.
>>I feel that you wery much admire strenght and despice weaknes<< Not exactly. I do think that if everyone were to respect themselves and what they truly need, they would find it far harder to get into trouble though. You will not find in Mahatma Gandhi a weak person! And I think you will find someone who spent his life doing exactly what he wanted and felt rather good about it. Also a person not afraid to make mistakes and correct them. So where is this contradiction between you and me? >>maybe this is the reason why you think it’s right to do what you want against weaker people and not pity them<< As for pity - please explain to me exactly how it helps someone to pity them. There is a huge other side to pity and getting people's pity can become an addiction for people in itself. I have seen this often and it makes me retch. People continually fuck up so that others will rescue them. I see MANY MANY people who drift directionlessly through life and try to get stuff handed to them (by a drug or by a White Tigress or by whatever) then have no balls to fight their way free. It is COMMON AS MUCK to be that way. I see very very few people striking out - like Gandhi - the BALLS on that guy! - in search of what they truly want, then perhaps needing help or rescue after having got into trouble, fiercely pursuing their human destiny. Furthermore many people insist there are moral reasons for doing nothing much with their lives and so I throw that kind of morality out of the window pretty much. Didn't Gandhi say that he had learned to conserve his anger and use it? Do you think a weak person could have done what he did? Do you think that Hitler was strong? - when what he did fell apart so quickly? Do you think that the nation who elected him was strong and had self-respect? Eesh. Maybe no-one else here gets what I'm saying. If you don't follow your own interior truth you are going wrong. There are circumstances where a life helping others could be completely misspent - even if it appears 'the right thing to do'! Things are never as simple as a moral purist would have you believe, and most people take on bargain-basement prepackaged moralities/solutions instead of actually asking themselves, what is my DESIRE? What RIGHT NOW will a bit of me DIE if I DON'T DO? This is why I say you must do as you truly will - the more wisdom you have the better you know your true will. If you look at the tigers fucking you can learn alot. They never falter, no animal ever does. It knows what it has to do. I didn't mean to throw you into a moral quandary, but then again... it won't do you any harm in the long run! One thing I do believe strongly, and that is in being a man of the world and knowing its ways. I am not the stay-in-a-cave type. But I still choose my OWN way. I just observe first the ways of others - not what they SAY, what they DO, and what then HAPPENS when they do it. You learn well that way. I also learn alot from martial artists. One of my early teachers (who taught me alot of sexual stuff too) was a ninja nicknamed 'Dr Death'. He could have killed me with one hand. He would spend hours learning the most painful way to hit people. He was one of the kindest people I ever met. You will see plenty of weak people starting fights in bars to try and prove something. You will never see him do it! Now tell me - why? Let me tell you two stories so you maybe see better. The head of the Japanese ninja, Hatsumi-soke, is a spiritual giant. You can take it from me. Every so often the clan gathers at what they call 'Tai Kai', and as part of the festivities Hatsumi will demonstrate his skills on some poor unfortunate. Glenn (my teacher) described this - for an hour Hatsumi wailed on some poor Spanish guy. He got thrown against every wall. At one point he even tried to attack Hatsumi and just fell to his knees without being able to make a move! Tell me - was Hatsumi 'cruel'? That evening the Spanish guy turned up at the hotel where Glenn was staying. He was glowing. He radiated. He beamed. Hatsumi had dumped enough energy into him EVEN WHILST KNOCKING HIS TEETH ASKEW to cure every bruise and then plenty more besides. The ninja know how to kill. They use acupuncture points - they call it poison hand, Dim Mak. You might feel nothing but two weeks later you drop dead. But at every belt rank amongst the ninja, you learn to heal EVERY SINGLE WOUND you learn how to inflict. Are the ninja cruel? I don't practice the martial arts, I'm a lover not a fighter. But I learned much from them. I would tell you some of the things Hatsumi has done but you wouldn't believe me. Another example: on a nature documentary, TV. A dry place in Northern Africa, but there is some standing water. Except that one summer it was hotter even than normal. Some fish were in a pool of water, and the water started evaporating away. They desperately kicked and flipped in the mud. No way out of course. Eventually the mud hardened. Their shapes were frozen in the act of struggling still to live. Now you tell me: is the universe cruel? The world we live in is wide and big. It is nonetheless and all the more our task to live in it. So my Swedish Dragon, what do YOU want to do, RIGHT NOW? Best NN
The two tigers are going to fuck. The female lies down. The male mounts her. He fucks her a few seconds, and as he does so, he clamps his jaw down hard upon her neck. When he is done he springs away fast – usually, but not always, in time. As he jumps back, she turns around and she attempts to rip his throat out with a huge snarl.
They are wary of each other a few minutes. Then they do it again.
Are they ruthless?
best NN
No, they are no ruthless. the tigers are playing the way their instincts naturally unfold.
But humans are not tigers, we have a different nature. Two very tigerish humans might emulate such tiger behavior, and each would understand and accept it.
btw, I am not opposed to ruthlessness; it is necessary for us to know kindness.
It has its own virtue in cleansing others of their weaknesses.But it could be tempered and used more wisely, not gratuitously, in those that have that virtue/inner nature.
Evolution is a spiral, everything is changing in relation to everything else.
Hello Nnonnth
I belive that when saying Do what you want or by saing following your real desire you can meen a lot of different things. If I have misunderstood you ir may have something to do with this.
If you just follow plain lust and believe this is your realy true desire then you risk to be addicted to thinks you really don’t need in the long run.
As you see from what I have written I’m not against power Either but I ask something more how do we use this power or how do we get it. Talking about Gandhi, Mahatma=greate soul. There is a huge difference betwean just following plain lust and desire and following a inner vision that contains all the people. This is why I mean it’s a pitty when peple don’t realize this and it might be harder for peple that is suppressed and living under harder sircumstances to realize this they have to much hatred inside. Hatred may also look like a desire and also contains a lot off energy that’s for shore. But is it whise to give full expression to this? So we are talking about deeper desires and deeper goals than just plain lust here.
It might not help just to pity this people it could be anybody by the way. It might help to try to guide them back to find out what they really need and want on a deeper level, this can sometimes be done and you can be the one to help with this if you have enough will and power. Its another thing to just use this peple for your own purposes. Instead we can guide “them” back so that they can find out who they realy are and what they really want. We have to realize that everybody are lost somtime and need to find theire way home. To feel pity for them or not as I meant is just another way to express that you feel empathy and this is the first step to help them change. Its a huge difference betwean this.
Or if we are looking at pedofiles. What are their desires? Should they give it full expression? As you write “Things are never as simple as a moral purist would have you believe, and most people take on bargain-basement prepackaged moralities/solutions instead of actually asking themselves, what is my DESIRE? What RIGHT NOW will a bit of me DIE if I DON’T DO?” What will be the consecuenses of this? But again when they are looking deeper what they really want to do might not be to follow theire lust.
And the other example with Hitler he had much hatred insade to obviously and didn’t see the equal value of all the people. Did he follow what he really wanted to do? I can surely see why the man killed himself in the end. Was this weakness or was he more weak when he was in action actually? Was he addicted to be admired?
If we look at mr Gandhis life I belive we see a person not just following his ego. I see a person that has found his meaning of his living on this planet. His mission was far more important than his ego or personal needs! He did see the value of other people all the Hindues the Muslims and Englismen as well. He was obviously not a weak person. When we speak about him doing what he want we mean obiously something else than when we speak about the pedofile doesn’t we.
What is to be a weak person? Is it to just follow what you at the moment think or feel is the thing you want and so more easily maight be an adictionist to thinks that not gain you in the long run. Like maybe the Tigresses that suck energy from the men.
If we look at the goal to live a long life whats the meaning of this if you just can acomplich this through sucking energy from other people? Or to do harm in other ways? This is the reason why I have a hard time to see that the Tigresses method in the beginning of this discussion really was a high practise. If it is like Wendy says they were supressed in some way they may have had the need to use theire power this way. But if it was common to this “sects” to live like this its another matter. If it is magical power you seek do you seek it for your own purpose only our do you seek to help others as well.
Its not only a matter who is strong and who isn’t its a matter of your depest intetions. which person do you want to be strong, a person like Hitler or a person like Gandhi?
But what about black magic. Is it possible to reach a high leve here. Is it possible realy?
I’m fully convinced that this time you decided not even to read what I wrote before you answered!
An example. Take two people. The first would never fuck a 6 year old child because it just something that no-one should ever do – it isn’t allowed, it is forbidden, it is wrong, etc. The second would never fuck a 6-year-old because the thought of doing so never even enters his head.
Which one do you trust more with your kid?
I don’t have a copy of Lao Tzu handy but he says something to the effect that – when everyone behaves naturally all is well, however when the sage comes along with his talk of benevolence and righteousness it causes trouble.
I can’t be bothered to write answers to everything else you wrote yet again.
NN
Hi Swedich Dragon,
I wish I could converse in Swedish half as well as you can in English.
“My deeper question are is this two perspectives possible to intergrate or aren’t they?”
Integrate ruthlessness and love? Sure you can. The phrase ‘tough love’ comes to mind as do images of fierce Buddhas who are wrathfully compassionate. Western Kabbalah talks about balancing Mercy with Severity and vice versa. Of course there has to be a certain level of integrity and personal spiritual integration to do this effectively, otherwise as Yoda says ‘subtle are the ways of the darkside’.
Rex
P.S. Hey Nnonnth you’ve made an excellent comeback!
Maybe this way is better.
As I say all that counts is what YOU TRULY DESIRE. I am going to try and convince you of this right now. Then maybe you will see that we actually agree on everything! I won’t talk about anything else – or I’ll try not to.
You wrote to the forum and you said, the
>>White Tigresses had cruel methods<< Is this true? Yes - if it is what YOU think. If YOU do not wish to practice this, then DO NOT. You don't need to make a rule about it that everyone has to follow. Just do what YOU want. Why do you think the White Tigresses were 'cruel'? It is because something inside you says, this is not what I WANT. You talked with Michael, at the end you said: >>Well nothing is simple isn’t it<< But actually it is very simple! It is only not simple if you try to say what EVERYONE should do. It is much simpler to decide what YOU will do, and then DO IT. You said: >>It might help to try to guide them [a weak or damaged person] back to find out what they really need and want on a deeper level, this can sometimes be done and you can be the one to help with this if you have enough will and power<< Sure - if this is what YOU truly WANT. If so DO IT! You don't need to make a rule about it that everyone has to follow. This is why I gave the example of Hatsumi-soke. If you had seen him hitting the Spanish guy for an hour, what would you have thought? Would you have realised that as he was hitting him he was also healing him, so that in the evening he was so happy and radiant? You cannot always trust that you understand the motives of others. You can only know what YOU will do. You do not need to make rules, because the rules are already made and they are in YOU. You don't have to judge every single white tigress - perhaps you don't even know anybody like that. Perhaps you will never meet anybody like that! Someone who did live that way her whole life would be rare indeed. You just have to know what YOU want. So when you say: >>If it is magical power you seek do you seek it for your own purpose only our do you seek to help others as well.<< I answer: do what YOU want. If you decide to seek magical power then YOU must decide what YOU want to do with it. There is no rule. You cannot see other's intentions if you do not understand and follow YOUR OWN. You cannot see the end of every action and work out in advance what 'would be correct' every time in all circumstances. You have to LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE and learn to trust that your instincts are the correct ones. You have to learn that to live is sometimes to make errors and then you correct the error because it is what YOU want. So when you say: >>What will be the consecuenses of this?<< I say, it is up to YOU to find out! Things do not always work out the way you expect. People are not always who they appear to be. The only thing you can say is what is YOUR OWN WISH for yourSELF. It would be absurd to try and say, a White Tigress has no chance to be Gandhi, so she should not follow this practice! They are not trying to be the same. But PERHAPS they both are following EXACTLY what they REALLY need. You do not KNOW. You only can say what YOU need. Unless you actually meet the person and know how to truly judge - are they happy and are they healthy? - you do not know what they 'should' do. They live by their rules and you by yours. You do not have to make yours apply to them, and you do not have to make theirs apply to you. So when you say: >>”what you want” is different things on different levels<< I say - sure! Now tell me what do YOU want to do about that? Perhaps you feel there is a 'level' where what you want is universal harmony, and also a 'level' where what you want is selfish. What do YOU want to do? Do YOU want to live selfishly all the time? Do YOU want to live selflessly all the time? Or strike some kind of balance? Then YOU DO IT. And you SEE WHAT HAPPENS. Everything that you meet will challenge you to understand and learn what YOU TRULY WISH and WHO YOU TRULY ARE. You are not Gandhi and you are not a White Tigress. You are YOU! When you do what it is truly YOUR DESIRE to do, you light up, you become radiant and healthy. When you do not, you become sick. You misunderstand the nature of the ego. A person could appear to be acting very selfishly but still not be 'egotistical' - Michael actually said this in a different context a while back. The ego is a set of assumptions that you habitually carry with you, which stop you from being who YOU REALLY ARE. At bottom there is only TRUTH. One person behaving very saintly might be extremely happy because it's what THEY WISH. Another might be very unhappy because they TRULY WISH nothing of the kind and they are only doing it because it is supposedly a 'good thing'. If they are very unhappy it is unlikely that they are doing the right thing, don't you think? The part of you that thinks you 'should' do something without asking what you truly want - that is the ego. To break its hold you will have to question your assumptions sometimes. Things happen that are 'bad' and 'good' things follow. 'Good' things happen and then 'bad' ones follow. I have seen people whose true motive is to help others - they really do help others and the others are healed. I have seen also people who say they wish to help others but what they really wish is for others to be dependent on them. This second type is more common in my experience. The best thing for them would be to stop trying to help others, at least for a while, but they don't do it. They can always take refuge behind the idea that it is 'right to help others'. The people they help then feel guiltier and guiltier... they are being controlled, not really helped. 'Helping others' is not ALWAYS a good thing. It can be a bad MISTAKE sometimes! - still you can go on doing it and then you and others pay for it. That is why I say: take what you want and pay for it. No-one gets everything 'right all the time'! What MAKES 'helping others' a good thing? It is a good thing when it is what you TRULY WANT. Then you do not need to be repaid for doing it. Why would you need to be paid if you are getting what you truly want? Most people are not Gandhi and most are not Hitler! Most are not so 'obviously' good and evil as that, so easy to judge. How much wisdom and self-knowledge would it take to say that Hitler was 'evil'? Not very much! But it is a harder conundrum to judge why so many martial artists - people who deliberately train to be violent - are also such spiritual people! You have to see deeper and know yourself better to understand that. That is why I brought it up. Given the question - who would you rather be, Hitler or Gandi? - I know who everyone would choose! But the truth is you never will be either of them. You will only ever be YOU. That is why I ask: what do YOU WANT to do, RIGHT NOW? best NN PS Yesterday I was talking in a cafe with two lady friends. Another lady came up to us who overheard our conversation, which was about sexuality and spirituality. She told us: "All my life I have wanted to help others. For the last 3 years I have been a counsellor. I became miserable. But tonight is the first night of my new job: I'm going to be a lapdancer! Please wish me luck!" Of course we did. But tell me, was this the RIGHT THING for her to do?
>>P.S. Hey Nnonnth you’ve made an excellent comeback!<< A bit TOO excellent perhaps!... how've you been? NN
Hello Nnonnth
Belive it or not but I have read everything you have been written, in this discussion, and I do think that I undestund you. At least you have forced me to think and that i enjoy realy much.
I do not see so much of a controverse betwean you and me as you maybe believe. Maybe we have a different kind of way to express orselves though.
You have asked me some questions and I may have some comments to what you have been written:
Your citate and comments to me
“>>White Tigresses had cruel methods<< Is this true? Yes - if it is what YOU think. If YOU do not wish to practice this, then DO NOT. You don't need to make a rule about it that everyone has to follow. Just do what YOU want. Why do you think the White Tigresses were 'cruel'? It is because something inside you says, this is not what I WANT." As I earlier told you I do like the taoist view about moralism: Don't put up rules to follow because this will only make you sad if you follow them against you inner nature or if you brake the rule and repent what you did do its creates also bad feelings. Or something like this which I belive the taoist had been saying. Rules creates inbalances that what I mean the taoist say and I agree. What I try to say is that you can't just do what you want all the time if this "do what you want" may hurt ohers. You have to take to account others as well. What I also try to say to you is: There is different kind of levels of doing what you want. On the surface without thinking and feeling more diply the thing you belive you want to do or the thing you desire, the pedofile for example, might just not be the right thing to do. But if you really find out what you want to do do it! Yes of coarse I agree with you at the fullest. I also believe in creating yourself from your inner power even if this is against some rubbish moral rules in your society. Do we agree with this. This is why I mean there are different kinds of levels of doing what you want to do. And if you find what you really want you and are consious enough you can follow it! Litle bit further on you write: What Swedich Dragon said ">>It might help to try to guide them [a weak or damaged person] back to find out what they really need and want on a deeper level, this can sometimes be done and you can be the one to help with this if you have enough will and power<< What Nnorhth said Sure - if this is what YOU truly WANT. If so DO IT! You don't need to make a rule about it that everyone has to follow. " I fully agree with you. I do not think you should try to help everybody I say if you want to do it. If you not want to then not do it, beacase you don't have the right intensions. So I say you can do it but I don't say you must do it! Then you write: "You don't have to judge every single white tigress - perhaps you don't even know anybody like that. Perhaps you will never meet anybody like that! Someone who did live that way her whole life would be rare indeed. You just have to know what YOU want." I don't judges every White Tigresses really I just question the use of the method to take energy from others and do them harm. I do belive your are rihgt when you say it may be right to do it from time to time, but not as a general way of living. I do belive that it is important that you not just take what you want or need for yourself when it is hurting others. See it holistically you and the other person are somehowe connected. I wrote: >>If it is magical power you seek do you seek it for your own purpose only our do you seek to help others as well.<< Your answer: "do what YOU want. If you decide to seek magical power then YOU must decide what YOU want to do with it. There is no rule. You cannot see other's intentions if you do not understand and follow YOUR OWN. You cannot see the end of every action and work out in advance what 'would be correct' every time in all circumstances. You have to LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE and learn to trust that your instincts are the correct ones. You have to learn that to live is sometimes to make errors and then you correct the error because it is what YOU want." I fully agree with you here. But my point is that its no problem if you have developed to a degree were you really see your inner intentions. If you for instance have wery much hatred in you like maybe Hitler had it maight be a better idea to take care of this negative feelings instead of projecting them on others and making wares. Its about different maturity levels. And its about different distinctions of what you want. You said: "Everything that you meet will challenge you to understand and learn what YOU TRULY WISH and WHO YOU TRULY ARE" My answer: Yes as you live you will see more and more clearly who you realy are and how to live your life in a way following this, who you are. You say: "You misunderstand the nature of the ego. A person could appear to be acting very selfishly but still not be 'egotistical' - Michael actually said this in a different context a while back. The ego is a set of assumptions that you habitually carry with you, which stop you from being who YOU REALLY ARE. At bottom there is only TRUTH. One person behaving very saintly might be extremely happy because it's what THEY WISH. Another might be very unhappy because they TRULY WISH nothing of the kind and they are only doing it because it is supposedly a 'good thing'. If they are very unhappy it is unlikely that they are doing the right thing, don't you think? The part of you that thinks you 'should' do something without asking what you truly want - that is the ego. To break its hold you will have to question your assumptions sometimes." What you write here about the ego I totaly agree with you about, so there is no reason to write something more about it. I do not think I have misundertood something I so strongly belive in myself. About the dancer. I'm sure it was the right thing for here to do if she believes it was. But you never know for sure. But I can't really see that she is hurting anybody with this either, by the way. And thanks for an interestning discussion. If you not want to answer then don't! If you want to you are wery welcome. Swedish DragonHello Rex
This was realy interesting. Its something like this I was after. Yes I belive this is for a sertain kind of level. It may not be so easy to accomplich.
I do not know much about your examples but I get in my mind some wery ruthless zen buddhists, in stories told usually about how an adept in zen buddism did reach enlightment after the ruthless munk did heat him right in the face and such stuff. This stories are really funny! And you can often sea some subtle inner meaning in them.
thanks rex
Swedish Dragon
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