zen and taoism

Hi Adel,

You are opening up a huge can of worms, because
there is no overall agreement in the community.

ON THE ONE HAND:

If you talk to some “Zen Daoists”,
you will hear the refrain that both Zen
and Daoism point to exactly the same thing.

Zen points to the joy of being alive, in
this very moment, and points to the core existence
that lives behind the thoughts and fantasies
of the mind. Then, they argue that Daoism,
as referenced in the Dao De Jing, points to
the exact same thing, and that there is nothing
more to say. In this context, alchemy is nothing
more than another fun tool to help you accomplish
this realization. There is no need to think that
you need to cultivate anything to be immortal,
because you are immortal already. Alchemy just
helps you realize it.

If you read the Healing Tao USA Goal (pink box
in the left column strip on the bottom if you scroll down),
it says:

“Healing Tao USA Goal:
To unfold Tao, the Natural Way–the deep, embodied
Natural Truth. To assist all beings experience their
Whole, True, Original, and Immortal Self.”

So this advertised goal would tend to confirm this view.

ON THE OTHER HAND:

There is a perspective in Alchemical
Daoism (say the Healing Tao), where the idea is that
you are trying to create an immortal body through alchemy
that you can deposit your fused shen into, otherwise
your shen scatter after death and you are recycled.
This is in disagreement with what some Zen Daoists say,
which says that you are immortal already, and you just
need to realize it. Here you better get busy cultivating
and transforming, so that you can be an immortal in the
hereafter. This is what longevity training is for . . .
to give you enough time to create your immortal body
before you expire in short of achieving this. Often
people that subscribe to this view, say that not only
is Zen different from Daoism, but they are therefore
clearly at odds. [As an aside, people that subscribe
this viewpoint also have some funny ideas about Buddhism,
and most of them are completely wrong.]

TO MY UNDERSTANDING:

Both are wrong.
That is, they do NOT point to the same thing
AND they are NOT at odds.

The simple fact is that AS FAR AS ZEN is concerned,
any cosmological questions about what happens after
physical death is not even up for discussion. You
can not say you are mortal. You can not say you
are immortal. Anything that is outside of the
right-here-right-now and experiencing life as it is,
IN THIS VERY MOMENT is not Zen. There is no destination
with Zen. You are already here. Therefore any
cosmological perspectives that one might adopt in Daoism
(either the “need to cultivate an immortal body” or
the “you are already immortal” perspective) are
COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of what you are trying to
accomplish with Zen. They don’t have anything to do
with Zen, and never did.

Therefore, in my view, one can adopt both systems
and have them be completely independent from each other.
As far as Healing Tao is concerned, you can believe what
you want (either immortal already, or
“mortal and need to cultivate”), and yet adopt Zen
in full-force and have that be merely an add-on.

In that context, Zen teaches you to be more fully engaged
in the present moment; to allow you to experience life
directly and unfiltered (from preconceived ideas),
to provide more insight into “who you really are”;
to allow you to see that you are something other than
“your ideas and thoughts”, to create more peace and
calm internally; to help decrease certain “negative”
behavior traits (purely for your own peace-of-mind,
not as a moral judgment) i.e. arrogance, egotistical
behavior, judgmental thinking; increase empathy, compassion,
and loving-kindness. How Zen does this is through
Zen meditation primarily, but can also come from other
add-ons: such as dharma talks, chanting, adopting the
Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path of Buddhism, etc.
In any case, these things (whichever are taken) can be
completely independent from any Daoist/Alchemical Daoist/
Healing Tao considerations.

It is my view that you use a fork for steak and a spoon
for soup, and you don’t try to apply one for both. 😉

I’ve linked at the end of this post, a four-part series
of posts on Zen Buddhism that I posted a couple of years ago
to provide more food for thought.

In any case, I’ve given you several different perspectives
on this issue, but ultimately it is up-to-you to decide
what you feel resonates with you.

Best,
Steven

http://forum.healingdao.com/philosophy/message/21111%5C

>>>Both views feel true to me though
>>>they seem to oppose each other.

How they can oppose each other really only
comes about if you let whichever Daoist
cosmological storyline you choose to adopt
pull you out of your full enjoyment of
experiencing life in the Zen sense.

If hope or fear enters into the equation,
your mind can cause you to trail off into
delusion, paranoia, or fantasy. This can
work cross-purposes to Zen.

If, however, you can treat it just as a storyline;
one possibility of many; and not imbue with it
with any craving, then there is no disagreement.
Because in particular, metaphysical/cosmological
issues are not the concern of Zen.

>>>By the way I eat both my steak
>>>and soup with chopsticks 🙂

LOL!!!!
Somehow, I knew that would be case. 😉

Best,
Steven

Hello Adel:

I feel Lao Zi is the guiding work for us, we don’t really need much more. It can be applied to qi gong, nei gong, tai chi, etc. Fear relates to the kidneys and the kidneys do not like cold. Maybe you can explore what “freezes” you up and try to warm it up to allow the kidneys to transform from frozen water to fluid flowing water. I suggest you do not look at what is going on as losing yourself, but actually gaining your true self. You may want to shift your thoughts/feelings and let go of having to have trust in the center. Sometimes we may want to follow the guidance of practitioners dating back thru time to Lao Zi, that the center is your true nature. We may want to have faith that those that have walked the path before us have valuable things to share, to assist us. One of those things is the center is our core, our yuan shen, the place we will realize our true nature.

It is my experience we are all fundamentally good people, with loving hearts and minds. Much of what we do is clear the layers of thoughts, emotions, patterns and influences to realize this part of ourselves that has always existed, has always been there. Our practices help us do this.

We all share this center together, when you are in your center and i am in my center, we share center. This is the unity of heaven, humanity and earth. If we have this intellectual clarity, it will move to include all of our being: jing/qi/shen: body/mind/spirit.

Smile, practice and your will reap the harvest of your practice. This is what I try to do daily too.

Big Hug,

David

You are not alone.
We are all in it together.
S

That proud tradition began, at least according to legend, in the fifth century B.C. with the poet Simonides of Ceos standing in the rubble of the great banquet hall collapse in Thessaly. As the poet closed his eyes and and reconstructed the crumbled building in his imagination, he had an extraordinary realization: he remembered where each of the guests at the ill-fated dinner had been sitting. Even though he had made no conscious effort to memorize the layout of the room, it had nevertheless left a durable impression upon his memory. From that simple observation, Simonides reputedly invented technique that would form the basis of what came to be known as the art of memory. He realized that if it hadn’t been guests sitting at the banquet table, but rather something else-say, every great greek dramatist seated in order of their dates of birth-he would have remembered that instead. or what if, instead of banquet guests, he saw each of the words of one of his poems arrayed around table? Or every task he needed to accomplish that day? Just about anything that could be imagined, he reckoned, could be imprinted upon one’s memory, and kept in good order, simply by engaging one’s spatial memory in the act of remembering. To use Simonides’ technique, all one has to do is convert something unmemorable, like a string of numbers or a deck of cards or a shopping list or Milton’s Paradise Lost, into series of engrossing visual images and mentally arrange them within an imagined space, and suddenly those forgettable items become unforgettable.
-JOSHUA FOER, Moonwalking with Einstein

I have impresion that if one wants to be serious practioner one shouldn’t use too much time for these old teachings or if one anyway is doing that, one should find right method to do that.

And for that to learn mnemonic art of the modern mental athletes.

HOWDY

Ps. Sorry for this long list of Youtube videos but I had gathered them into my personal memory palace and used them to compose this message. Sorry also for my English, but I am still at the level of learning lists of words and haven’t yet reached grammar level, because parts of speeach need special treatment imaginatively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHzOG4mJ0PA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFLjF8yp7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rywUS-ohqeE&ob=av2e